Mormon Empire of the West

What if the Mormon territory around Salt Lake City proved even more successful than in the OTL, expanded to the West and South , to take over California and Texas.

How would things develop?

I am thinking of a Mormon settlement that was even more fanatical than the original and prepared in effect to invade non-Mormon territory and effect the conversion of non-Mormons.

This isn't so unlikely given that the Mormon community were guided by the revelations of their Prophets. A bad fever might produce a dream in the Prophet that compels him to put the community on a more martial footing.
 
They get stomped on by the USA.

OK, well let's imagine they get clever on the diplomatic front and involve a power that could support them in their rebellion, as the colonists were aided by the French against the British. Maybe the French again ? Promised the restoration of Louisiana, perhaps. Thrown in the Mexicans. And a few Native American tribes. And the southern states refuse to get involved, being secretly sympathetic to the Mormons as slave owners.

A grand Western War.
 
The USA stomps them even harder. Sorry.

What - despite facing a war with France,native American uprisings and internal disenssion over slavery?

Well you can throw in a border dispute with the British in Canada.

Still going to stomp on everyone?
 
Hi, David.

david green said:
This isn't so unlikely given that the Mormon community were guided by the revelations of their Prophets. A bad fever might produce a dream in the Prophet that compels him to put the community on a more martial footing.

This would probably have had the effect of estranging many members of the LDS community, rather than rallying them for a war. Remember, they were running away from the United States in the first place: it's hardly likely that they would believe they could successfully wage a war at this point in history.

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david green said:
And the southern states refuse to get involved, being secretly sympathetic to the Mormons as slave owners.

Just to be clear, Mormons were abolitionists almost from the beginning, so I'm not sure that there would be much comraderie here.

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david green said:
What - despite facing a war with France,native American uprisings and internal disenssion over slavery?

Well you can throw in a border dispute with the British in Canada.

Still going to stomp on everyone?

It only took a relatively small army from the USA (about 2500 soldiers) to invade Utah and bring the Mormons in line in OTL: I don't think there was much the Mormons could have done to improve their chances in such a fight.
 

Zioneer

Banned
For institutional memory - an old thread that was recently revived and which contained some good comments/thoughts on the subject: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=35117

Also, MormonMobster began (but sadly did not continue) a Deseret TL a few months ago: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=193005

Yeah, sorry about that; I had lost inspiration and interest. I might continue it if I feel like it (what's the cut-off for thread necromancy?), but probably not.

As for the actual feasibility of a "Mormon Empire", completely ASB. And I say this as a Mormon. We had a good-sized empire/area of influence in OTL, and even if the population of the Church is helped by less splintering, and more of a martial tradition (as I was going to have happen in my TL), it's basically impossible for them to have an "empire" beyond their influence OTL. The only way for them to survive as a nation is to have the US avoid fighting Mexico, and thus taking the west. And even then, the Mormons have to be incredibly lucky.

An interesting idea however, would be Mormons heading South instead of West, and ending up on one of the Caribbean islands. I might write that. Hmm...

I'd talk more about how the Mormons having a martial tradition, and the "fever dream" thing is stupid, but I don't really want to get into an argument.
 
...even if the population of the Church is helped by less splintering, and more of a martial tradition (as I was going to have happen in my TL), it's basically impossible for them to have an "empire" beyond their influence OTL.

There is definitely an issue of balance there, too: increases to the Church's success early would result in decreases to the Saints' incentive to head West in the first place. But, not increasing the Church's success early would make it a major challenge to build up the population necessary to feasibly control an empire.

In my opinion, the Mormon Church was simply too small, too weird and too late on the scene to have become a major political force in the mid-1800's.

(By the way, I'm a Mormon too).
 
What - despite facing a war with France,native American uprisings and internal disenssion over slavery?

Well you can throw in a border dispute with the British in Canada.

Still going to stomp on everyone?

Mormonism was founded in the 1820's, and the first Mormon settlers only made it to Utah in 1847.

The borders of the Oregon Territory (the only major dispute between Britain and America) were agreed upon in 1846.

The United States has not faced a war with France since 1800, indeed the United States has spent half its history allied to France.

Dissension over slavery only became violent during the Civil War era.


Essentially your argument holds no water.
 
Yeah, sorry about that; I had lost inspiration and interest. I might continue it if I feel like it (what's the cut-off for thread necromancy?), but probably not.

As for the actual feasibility of a "Mormon Empire", completely ASB. And I say this as a Mormon. We had a good-sized empire/area of influence in OTL, and even if the population of the Church is helped by less splintering, and more of a martial tradition (as I was going to have happen in my TL), it's basically impossible for them to have an "empire" beyond their influence OTL. The only way for them to survive as a nation is to have the US avoid fighting Mexico, and thus taking the west. And even then, the Mormons have to be incredibly lucky.

An interesting idea however, would be Mormons heading South instead of West, and ending up on one of the Caribbean islands. I might write that. Hmm...

I'd talk more about how the Mormons having a martial tradition, and the "fever dream" thing is stupid, but I don't really want to get into an argument.


On a side note, before I begin my main point, I too would love to see you continue your original TL; it sounded interesting, and I'd love to learn more about LDS History.
Now, one to the main point. So, lets say that the US avoids a war with Mexico. It wouldn't be too difficult; have Henry Clay defeat Polk and finally get his chance to shine. Clay would have been hostile to any outisde conflict that took away from his domestic plan.
So we have the large Mormon exodus to the Great Salt Lake and surrounding environs. Their population begins to grow and the Mexican government takes a dislike to these strange Anglo-freebooters who refuse to accept the authority of Mexico City.
Lets say that war finally breaks out in the 1860s. The US, without the Mexican-American War, may or may not be in a Civil War by this point. If not, volunteers from the US begin to drift into the region; they view the Mormans as plucky rebels against the hated Mexican government. Texas redux, if you will. The fact that the Mormons got chased from the US is overlooked by many (although not all.)
The Mormons pull out a victory, and the state of Deseret is established, including OTL Utah, as well as Arizona and New Mexico. The US doesn't really care, as it doesn't want these territories in the first place. It may start looking at California; but i could see, with the Gold Rush, the Mormon Revolt occuring at the same time as an Anglo rebellion in California.
Basically, you end up with a rather large, but underpopulated, Deseret. Not an empire by any stretch of the imagination, but a unified and indepdent state.
 
WI the ACW breaks out in 1850/1?

Brigham Young declares Deseret's undying loyalty to the Union, and seeks immediate Statehood. In the excitement over impending war, a distracted Congress passes the Bill without much debate.

That gives a State of Deseret including Nevada and at least half of Colorado. It also still has polygamy, which hasn't yet attracted the attention that it is to do a few years later.
 
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