NAZI Israel ?!

whitecrow

Banned
I was reading Tv tropes when I came across this:

Also notable is Lehi, a splinter group from the Irgun [a Zionist terrorist group in the days of British Mandate of Palestine]; the British refused to dignify them with their proper name and instead called them the Stern Gang (after the founder, Avraham Stern). Unlike the Irgun, who chose to leave the British alone on the theory that the Nazis were worse, Lehi continued to attack British targets throughout World War II. Indeed, they tried to contact Those Wacky Nazis (yes, the Nazis) in 1940 on the theory that Hitler wasn't interested in killing the Jews, just in sending them out of Europe; Stern apparently wanted to found a Fascist state for all the world's Jews in Palestine (how's that for irony?).
I'm surprised to learn that there was a Zionist group that sought an alliance with Third Reich. So suppose Stern, with or without Nazi support, manages to kick British out of Palestine (let's say British Empire has more pressing problems & decided that keeping Palestine is not worth the effort) at some point before Hitler implements the "Final Solution". Would Stern seek relations with & aid from Hitler? Would Hitler settle for relocating Jews to Palestine rather than Madagascar? Is there any chance of a lasting alliance (or at least peace) between Hitler and Stern or would a "pact with the Devil" turn out as well for Stern as it did for Bandera in OTL?
 
I was reading Tv tropes when I came across this:


I'm surprised to learn that there was a Zionist group that sought an alliance with Third Reich. So suppose Stern, with or without Nazi support, manages to kick British out of Palestine (let's say British Empire has more pressing problems & decided that keeping Palestine is not worth the effort) at some point before Hitler implements the "Final Solution". Would Stern seek relations with & aid from Hitler? Would Hitler settle for relocating Jews to Palestine rather than Madagascar? Is there any chance of a lasting alliance (or at least peace) between Hitler and Stern or would a "pact with the Devil" turn out as well for Stern as it did for Bandera in OTL?

First of all, completely ASB. When Stern was discovered to have contacted the Nazis, a significant amount of his support left and joined the Irgun. The Lehi was reduced to a force of no more then 200-250 members. Not even if they were all Steven Seagal could they drive the British out of Palestine.

As for if they did... Hitler, along with promising to Stern that he would create a Jewish National Homeland in Palestine, also promised Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and one of the Palestinians' leaders) that he would build a concentration camp in Nablus and drive the foreign Zionist invaders out. So no, I think the end result would be 10 million Jews dead, not 6.
 
that's the most ASB ive ever seen since George Clooney runs naked through Congress.
I'm not familiar with what TL you're referring to, but I don't think that George Clooney running naked through congress is ASB.
Clooney runs for as a representative of California under the "I'm a celebrity, vote for me" ticket and squeaks by on name recognition. Being a congressman, he stays in congress for many, many terms; when he gets on in years an undetected brain tumor eats up the inhibition area of his brain and he strips and streaks. This being congress, everybody else is in their respective constituencies and next to nobody is actually present. He resigns in shame in the wake of the scandal and dies a few months later.

If the Legislative Yuan of Taiwan can turn into an all-out brawl, I can believe a senile movie star can lose his marbles in congress. Not ASB. Pretty depressing, though.
 

The Vulture

Banned
I think your first mistake is using that godawful waste of bandwidth as a source for historical information.
 

Cook

Banned
, manages to kick British out of Palestine (let's say British Empire has more pressing problems & decided that keeping Palestine is not worth the effort)

There really isn’t much that would be considered more pressing and require Britain to remove all of their forces from Palestine. Palestine was the Suez Canal’s flank and there was nothing of higher importance to the British than Suez. If worse really came to worse and they absolutely had to withdraw all British personnel, they would hand over to the Arab legion of their client state of Transjordan to secure it with arab troops commanded by British officers.

And before anyone says ‘but they did quit Palestine’ I will point out that they did so after India gained independence, at which point Suez ceased to be the overwhelming strategic asset that it had been and after Britain had fought a six year war that left her completely bankrupt and exhausted and looking to divest herself of the accumulated baggage of a hundred years of empire building as quickly as possible.

Btw, I believe that prior to the war the Irgun received considerably more money from Mussolini than from Germany. Prior to 1938 Italy was not Anti-Semite.
 

Cook

Banned
Nonsense. I doubt Britain could hold Palestine against even two Steven Seagals. They'd be insane to even try.

Fffft. Any of the Bond’s would have the Steven Seagals like a done dinner in no time, even the Timothy Dalton Bond.
:p
 

whitecrow

Banned
I think your first mistake is using that godawful waste of bandwidth as a source for historical information.
TVTropes is awesome, but a reliable source of historical information, it's not :rolleyes:
In my deffence I wasn't looking for information on Stern Gang when I found that tidbit. Bit is there anythig ahistorical about the statment I quoted?

wasn't there a proposal to relocate jews to Madagascar?
Yes.

Not to sound like a nazi apologist, but it seems Hitler's initial plan wasn't extermination of Jews, but deportation to a police state set up by Germany. Now could Stern make that a possibility?

First of all, completely ASB. When Stern was discovered to have contacted the Nazis, a significant amount of his support left and joined the Irgun. The Lehi was reduced to a force of no more then 200-250 members. Not even if they were all Steven Seagal could they drive the British out of Palestine.
Is there any way for Lehi to overtake Irgun prior to Stern's "fall from grace" then?

As for if they did... Hitler, along with promising to Stern that he would create a Jewish National Homeland in Palestine, also promised Hajj Amin al-Husseini (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and one of the Palestinians' leaders) that he would build a concentration camp in Nablus and drive the foreign Zionist invaders out. So no, I think the end result would be 10 million Jews dead, not 6.
Didn't know Hitler actualy mad that promise to Stern :eek:.

There really isn’t much that would be considered more pressing and require Britain to remove all of their forces from Palestine. Palestine was the Suez Canal’s flank and there was nothing of higher importance to the British than Suez. If worse really came to worse and they absolutely had to withdraw all British personnel, they would hand over to the Arab legion of their client state of Transjordan to secure it with arab troops commanded by British officers.

And before anyone says ‘but they did quit Palestine’ I will point out that they did so after India gained independence, at which point Suez ceased to be the overwhelming strategic asset that it had been and after Britain had fought a six year war that left her completely bankrupt and exhausted and looking to divest herself of the accumulated baggage of a hundred years of empire building as quickly as possible.

Btw, I believe that prior to the war the Irgun received considerably more money from Mussolini than from Germany. Prior to 1938 Italy was not Anti-Semite.
Humor me. Let's say WW1 turns out worst for Britain and some of its colonies, including India, become independent in 1920s & 1930s.
 
Then the odds of the tens of thousands of Jews in British Palestine being able to form a state against vastly larger numbers of Arabs and possibly independent Arab states in Egypt or Jordan are even worse.
 
Is there any way for Lehi to overtake Irgun prior to Stern's "fall from grace" then?.....

No, there isn't. In large part, his fascist ideology and links to both Mussolini and Hitler were what MADE him fall from grace. Now, If Hitler dies early and World War 2 is butterflied into a smaller, more subdued conflict ending a peace treaty, its entirely possible that the Yishuv will view the British as a bigger problem than the Nazis. This might push them towards fascism and the creation of a German-backed fascist Zionist state.

Didn't know Hitler actualy mad that promise to Stern :eek:.

Yes, yes he did. Hitler was a slippery one indeed, and Stern was a moron.
 
Fffft. Any of the Bond’s would have the Steven Seagals like a done dinner in no time, even the Timothy Dalton Bond. :p
Even? I actually thought he was one of the better Bonds personally. After the lightness of Moore, and Niven, he brought the films back to their darker more traditional roots. For my money he's easily in upper half of the list of Bonds.
 
Fffft. Any of the Bond’s would have the Steven Seagals like a done dinner in no time, even the Timothy Dalton Bond.
:p

Wait, what? Dalton's Bond was one of the good ones. He was like the Daniel Craig Bond of the 80s.
 

Cook

Banned
Humor me. Let's say WW1 turns out worst for Britain and some of its colonies, including India, become independent in 1920s & 1930s.

Well in that case a lot of other things are going to change too; including the need for the Irgun to even wage a war against British occupation anyway and any motivation for the Italians and Germans to finance them. This was not altruism on the part of the fascists remember, they wanted the British brought down a beg or five; if the British Empire is on the ropes why would they even bother sending money to some dirty Yids?* Remember the Irgun were fighting the British because it looked like the British were there to stay, if it is clear the British are going then the Irgun is going to focus exclusively on the Arabs, which does nothing to help Mussolini or Hitler, so they have no reason to pay. The Haganah will also probably be stronger and able to enforce discipline on the Irgun, via the barrel of a gun if need be.

*Only an issue for Hitler, Mussolini didn’t enact any Anti-Semitic Laws until 1938 and then only to satisfy the Germans.

Not to sound like a nazi apologist, but it seems Hitler's initial plan wasn't extermination of Jews, but deportation to a police state set up by Germany.
German policy was expulsion, after the Jews were out they didn’t give a fuck where they went. The Nazis even organised a system where the wealthy Jews, including international Jewish and Zionist bodies, payed for the poorer Jews. The senior Nazi involved in liaising with the Zionists on the matter, who visited Cairo to talk with them, was Adolf Eichmann. (Yes, no shit.)
 
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