AH Challenge: Welsh Empire
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Did the Britons ever manage to unite all of the ex-Roman province of Britannia?
The main problem here is getting that to happen.
Maybe if some semblance of the Imperial Order remains you could see British legions being raised to defend the Province against foreign invasion- it would become, in effect a rump Empire, possibly with a line of rulers claiming to be the rightful Roman Emperors after the Western Empire falls apart.
As for a British Empire in this TL, it could happen- but the butterflies are such that it would be hard to extrapolate.
The main problem here is getting that to happen.
Maybe if some semblance of the Imperial Order remains you could see British legions being raised to defend the Province against foreign invasion- it would become, in effect a rump Empire, possibly with a line of rulers claiming to be the rightful Roman Emperors after the Western Empire falls apart.
As for a British Empire in this TL, it could happen- but the butterflies are such that it would be hard to extrapolate.
Henry VIII was kind of Welsh - descendant of Owen Tudor I think. So perhaps he relocates the political capital to Cardiff from London (why? I have no idea).
With a Welsh centred government of England and Wales its plausible that the invasions into Ireland are more successful and hence Ireland becomes the first province of the Welsh empire.
With a Welsh centred government of England and Wales its plausible that the invasions into Ireland are more successful and hence Ireland becomes the first province of the Welsh empire.
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Othniel said:
Arthur is a bit too late- once the Saxons have got their footholds in England they're going to be much harder to dislodge.
Equally, the Tudors are far too late to provide a Welsh-dominated England.
Basically, we have to find a way to keep Britannia British instead of letting the English take over. Hence my idea abot the rump Empire.
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Wendell said:
Did Henry VIII even consider himself a "Celt"? I think you might be projecting modern nationalistic opinions into situations where it's irrelevant.
Henry is only concerned with his own power. Splitting from the catholic church was a riskjy move- his force of will combined with support from the Reformation-minded sector of the English people let him pull it off.
Now suddenly identifying with a subjugated race isn't going to earn him any brownie points with the English.
In fact OTL, Henry's enactment of the Acts of Union (1536-43), uniting England and Wales laid the groundwork for the Anglicisation of Wales, with clauses like one outlawing the Welsh language.
We obviously won't have a Welsh Empire after the union with England, except due to a painful break away which is unlikely to let Wales become the dominating power.
Therefore, the PoD must be at about that time or earlier - like the King dies; a civil war erupts about his succession; Wales is unaffected and gets a new King, while England is in ruins; the Spanish are about to come over for a visit; the King of Wales gets the best ship builders and cannon producers from England and the Netherlands to build a small but effective fleet; he's successful in sinking an earlier and smaller Armada, establishing Wales as a major power. Wales expands a little at home, especially to the south, to gain those ressources and the technologies, trade, and taxes associated with such ressources; Wales (maybe together with Scotland) makes sure England breaks up and becomes 3 small Kingdoms not threatening Wales (maybe also Catholic again); Wales becomes Protestant with the next King (has certain economic benefits); Wales gets a few colonies to underpin it's major power status; Wales expands like OTL GB, just a little bit earlier; Wales is the place from which all the English, Scotish and even (thanks to cheap shipping) Irish emmigrants colonize the new world (Americas, Africa, later Australia); The 6 Kingdoms (Wales, North-England, Middle-England, South-England, Scotland, and Ireland) form a loose alliance; South England sometimes competes a litttle, but whenever it's involved in a continental war getting too big, Wales gets the colonies in exchange for soldiers and ships; Cardiff becomes a large city unlike any other in the 6 Kingdoms; the city later becomes famous for her "swimming harbour" (large pontoon piers to offset the tides) and other marvels of Engineering; Ireland becomes part of the Welsh Empire. At the end of the 18th century, the Welsh Empire stretches over a quarter of the World, Welsh is spoken by a third of the worlds population, and there is even talk about the remaining English and Scotish Kingdoms uniting under the Welsh King or Queen.
Therefore, the PoD must be at about that time or earlier - like the King dies; a civil war erupts about his succession; Wales is unaffected and gets a new King, while England is in ruins; the Spanish are about to come over for a visit; the King of Wales gets the best ship builders and cannon producers from England and the Netherlands to build a small but effective fleet; he's successful in sinking an earlier and smaller Armada, establishing Wales as a major power. Wales expands a little at home, especially to the south, to gain those ressources and the technologies, trade, and taxes associated with such ressources; Wales (maybe together with Scotland) makes sure England breaks up and becomes 3 small Kingdoms not threatening Wales (maybe also Catholic again); Wales becomes Protestant with the next King (has certain economic benefits); Wales gets a few colonies to underpin it's major power status; Wales expands like OTL GB, just a little bit earlier; Wales is the place from which all the English, Scotish and even (thanks to cheap shipping) Irish emmigrants colonize the new world (Americas, Africa, later Australia); The 6 Kingdoms (Wales, North-England, Middle-England, South-England, Scotland, and Ireland) form a loose alliance; South England sometimes competes a litttle, but whenever it's involved in a continental war getting too big, Wales gets the colonies in exchange for soldiers and ships; Cardiff becomes a large city unlike any other in the 6 Kingdoms; the city later becomes famous for her "swimming harbour" (large pontoon piers to offset the tides) and other marvels of Engineering; Ireland becomes part of the Welsh Empire. At the end of the 18th century, the Welsh Empire stretches over a quarter of the World, Welsh is spoken by a third of the worlds population, and there is even talk about the remaining English and Scotish Kingdoms uniting under the Welsh King or Queen.
Henry VIII never admitted to being Welsh, I think he was rather embarrased about it wanting to seem entirely English. His dad Henry VII on the other hand was very Welsh. The modern Welsh flag was his personal standard.
You could say the Welsh did take over England here, the Tudor claim to the English throne was ridiculously far fetched yet he got away with it.
For how to have a fully Welsh empire I think you really need a fully celtic Britain. Maybe keep it more strongly romanised and more then a little xenophobic early on?
You could say the Welsh did take over England here, the Tudor claim to the English throne was ridiculously far fetched yet he got away with it.
For how to have a fully Welsh empire I think you really need a fully celtic Britain. Maybe keep it more strongly romanised and more then a little xenophobic early on?
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Wendell said:
Well, he doesn't seem to have done so- after all like I said this was the man who made the Welsh language illegal.
If I might reiterate, the best way to have a Welsh Empire is for the Britons to hold out against the Saxons, preferably with a Roman-style military base.
If I may modify one of my favourite AH patterns, the Welsh fight off successive waves of Anglo-Saxon invaders. However the greatest of these Saxon waves* manages to seize control of territory in the far North of Britannia, beyond Hadrian's Wall. After a few generations the Emperor of Britannia moves forth and crushes the Saxons but finds evidence of new lands across the sea. Slowly but surely, colonies are made in the land, which the barbarian Saxons call "Vinland" and by the 12th Century there are thriving British colonies on the Easern coast of Vinland, all gowing and exporting a new crop- smokeweed which sells for high prices in the markets of Europe and upon which the Britons have a monopoly. British missionaries are busy converting the tribes- the coming of a great time of plague among them with the coming of the British has convinced many that the Christian god does indeed have power. Besides, they are eager for access to the secrets of forging iron and the amazing animals like the horse and the cow that the British invaders bring with them...
*OTL we would call them the Norse Vikings
jolo said:
Creating a devastating shortage of consonants which will lead to worldwide linguistic collapse, Eastern Europe being the hardest hit...
?It'll be rough, Gladi, very rough. The 10,000 or so truly fluent Welsh speakers consume an astonishing 19% of the world's rapidly-diminishing supply of "y's" and "d's." Indeed, in a truely reckless display of wanton overconsumption, they frequently use "yy" and "dd" when a single character alone would suffice. I predict consonant riots, if not outright civil war...