WI: Pope Martin Luther?

It seems far fetched perhaps to the point of being ASB, but considering so many things in OTL are...

Let's say that Luther keeps his ideas to himself long enough to eventually rise to the Papacy. Whatever needs to happen to get him there, so be it.

But now as Pope, let's say he reforms the Catholic church in sort of a Catholic-Protestant compromise and the Reformed Catholic Church does not split. No Protestantism. A more relaxed Catholic church perhaps, but one where tradition is still kept sacred, just not vital. Confession becomes therapy, the Eucharist is recognized as traditional, etc.

What does Pope Martin Luther's (not sure of his Papal name yet) papacy look like? What are its effects?

Discuss the butterflies on history in Europe and in the world.
 
It seems far fetched perhaps to the point of being ASB, but considering so many things in OTL are...

Let's say that Luther keeps his ideas to himself long enough to eventually rise to the Papacy. Whatever needs to happen to get him there, so be it.

But now as Pope, let's say he reforms the Catholic church in sort of a Catholic-Protestant compromise and the Reformed Catholic Church does not split. No Protestantism. A more relaxed Catholic church perhaps, but one where tradition is still kept sacred, just not vital. Confession becomes therapy, the Eucharist is recognized as traditional, etc.

What does Pope Martin Luther's (not sure of his Papal name yet) papacy look like? What are its effects?

Discuss the butterflies on history in Europe and in the world.

Can I have whatever it is you are smoking?
 
This scenario is stretching the limits of plausibility, but if you could somehow find a way for this to happen I would definitely be interested. I think that, with a PoD this late however, some sort of schism might be inevitable. You can minimize the impact and number, but something like the Reformation is bound to happen to some degree.


As for the Papal name, he could just be Pope Martin VI. He would be able to keep his name while reinforcing the theme of reform. The last pope named Martin convened the Council of Florence.
 
This scenario is stretching the limits of plausibility, but if you could somehow find a way for this to happen I would definitely be interested. I think that, with a PoD this late however, some sort of schism might be inevitable. You can minimize the impact and number, but something like the Reformation is bound to happen to some degree.


As for the Papal name, he could just be Pope Martin VI. He would be able to keep his name while reinforcing the theme of reform. The last pope named Martin convened the Council of Florence.

How early of a POD would be required to eliminate the inevitability of schism and promote the plausibility of Papal reform?
 
How early of a POD would be required to eliminate the inevitability of schism and promote the plausibility of Papal reform?

The problem is that at any point the Church needs reform, there will be some radicals who think the only way for the Church to be truly purified is going even further than merely sweeping corruption clean.

And judging by the history of Christianity, it was too late for that when they took Jesus down from the cross.
 
That is a difficult question to answer. The Reformation was hardly something that sprung fully formed from the mind of Martin Luther. He was not the first person to criticize the Church. The movement started with John Wycliffe during the 1300s. Then there was Jan Hus and another assortment of figures.

The Church was ripe for some sort of schism. It needs to present itself as being more receptive to the cries against abuse.


A good late point to at least delay or lessen the Reformation would be to prevent the Papacy of Alexander VI. Although there were many corrupt popes before him, he raised the ceiling to nearly unprecedented heights. He would later become a symbol of Church corruption for reformers to rally against.
 
Ehh, Alexander really wasn't all that as corrupt Popes go. The Borgias just made the mistake of playing the game of Italian politics while being a family of transplanted Spaniards. Now, Julius II on the other hand...
 
So a schism is creeping towards an inevitability and then, just when it seems the Church has lost its divinity, the people's troubles fall upon deaf ears, and the split begins to come to a head: enter Pope Martin VI who begins the Catholic Reformation...

This could be good stuff.

It could also be dangerous if Catholicism has no counter-balance in Europe. Even if Martin's New Order both reforms and preserves the church successfully, his successors will have the luxury of absolute Holy Power.

Thoughts?
 
There will still be those who object to theocratic dreams from the Papacy.

The day in which kings answered to the pope may be ending no matter how strongly Catholicism stays.
 
Ehh, Alexander really wasn't all that as corrupt Popes go. The Borgias just made the mistake of playing the game of Italian politics while being a family of transplanted Spaniards. Now, Julius II on the other hand...

Well, get rid of Alexander and you likely butterfly away Julius. Two birds, one stone. I'm receptive to anything that gets rid of the Banquet of Chestnuts.

Unfortunately, without Julius, the Sistine Chapel's ceiling never gets commissioned. That will be a depressing loss, but maybe another artist could get the opportunity do do so. Maybe we could get an alternative ceiling painted by Raphael or Da Vinci instead.

So a schism is creeping towards an inevitability and then, just when it seems the Church has lost its divinity, the people's troubles fall upon deaf ears, and the split begins to come to a head: enter Pope Martin VI who begins the Catholic Reformation...

This could be good stuff.

It could also be dangerous if Catholicism has no counter-balance in Europe. Even if Martin's New Order both reforms and preserves the church successfully, his successors will have the luxury of absolute Holy Power.

Thoughts?

It does make an interesting premise. Not sure how plausible, but interesting. I still say that there is going to be some kind of Reformation and that you can only minimize its impact.


Perhaps Martin's reforms could include a reform of the Papal State. The Papal State was rife with corruption and immensely inefficient around this time. I don't know how much of a statesman Luther was, but he could possibly reform the government of the nation or allow someone in his administration to do so.

On a separate note, one very negative aspect of this scenario is that the Catholic Church is likely to become much more anti-Semitic. Luther was famous for his harsh anti-Jewish statements and writings. If Pope Martin is anything like OTL Luther in this regard, the Jews are in very hot water.

You could potentially avoid this by having Martin's successor reject his predecessors views but by then the ideas will be ingrained in the minds of Catholics everywhere.
 
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Well this isn't ASB.

What people dont understand, is that Martin Luthers intial teachings were completely in line with established Catholic teachings. The Papacy was actually incorrect in this situation, the selling of indulgences is not allowed, and luther was completely correct. At first, Luther only wanted a debate with the higher church hierarchy, and this is proven because he wrote his letters in scholarly latin which only the higher church leaders could read.

However, the Pope at the time wanted to continue to raise indulgences, and thought Luther's argument was just a conflict between religious orders. (Luther was an Augustinian, and they frequently were in conflict with the Dominicans) BIG MISTAKE.

Luther then published his works to the public, and won support of alot of people and the nobility (who didn't want to be taxed by the Church). By the time the pope declared Luther a Heretic it was too late, and the Church had permenantly splintered when Luther soon after began criticizing the Church hierachy and the authority of tradition and the popes (this is when he broke off with the Church)

realistic POD:Luther's argument is taken more seriously, and he manages to convince the pope the error of his ways, winning much admiration by the conservative elements of the College of Cardinals. Years later he is elevated to Bishop in a few years. Eventually he becomes a Cardinal, then is elected Pope. When he is Pope in the 1530's-1550's he enacts Church reform simmilar to that of the Council of Trent (maybe linguistic rules changed from Vulgar Latin to common languages), yet allows the Catholic Church to remained Unified.
 
Luther died in 1546 of a variety of illnesses so it's hard to imagine him living past 1546, but the stresses of the Papacy (granted there were equal or greater stresses as creator of the Lutheran Church) could make it shorter.

So, between 1483 and 1546 there were 8 conclaves. 6 from the time he reached adulthood. They were:
  • September 1503 to succeed Alexander VI: In OTL, they selected Italian Francesco Piccolomini (Pius III). This was a compromise, sure, but Piccolomini was a highly papabile Cardinal and the nephew of a former Pope (Pius II). Luther was 19 years old at the time, not yet a monk, and enrolled in the University of Erfurt. Nowhere near the radar.
  • October 1503 to succeed Pius III: Pius died less than a month after his election, and this is the shortest conclave in history (10 hours). Without the Piccolomini decision to bog them down, everyone (and that's all the European Kings butting in) pretty much agreed on Italian Giuliano della Rovere (Julius II). Some would regret it. Luther's still at school.
  • March 1513 to succeed Julius II: This was a Medici-controlled conclave. There were two serious figures (Giovanni de' Medici and Raffaele Riario, Italians of course), but no compromise was made. Giovanni won after all, and became Pope Leo X. In the 10 years since the last conclave, Luther had become a highly devoted monk, entered the priesthood, and had already (at the age of 29) become the Doctor in Bible at the University of Wittenberg. He was not in Rome during the conclave, and few, if anyone, knew who he was. But he still had quite a meteoric rise to this point.
  • December 1521-January 1522 to succeed Leo X: This is probably one of the more likely conclaves for a Luther election. Of course, this was one year after Luther's excommunication by Leo, and *everybody* knew who he was now. But this conclave was dominated by two leading figures. One, a Medici (Giulio de' Medici) and Two, another guy named Alessandro Farnese. And guess what, neither was chosen. They compromised, and plucked someone out of relative obscurity. That was Adrian of Utrecht (Adrian VI). He was Dutch, not Italian, and his claim to fame was he was a Cardinal who had close ties to the Holy Roman Emperor (Charles V, a former student of his).
  • October 1523 to succeed Adrian VI: Same basic deal as the last one. It's between Giulio de' Medici and Farnese, and compromise is likely. Although it didn't happen, in OTL, because Medici finally won out (becoming Clement VII), and Luther, in OTL, is still an excommunicated troublemaker amidst the Adrian-started Counter-Reformation.
  • October 1534 to succeed Clement VII: Long break here, and it's likely the butterflies from Luther's non-Lutheranism would change the basic proceedings of this conclave. As predicted, Farnese finally got a shot at the Papacy, becoming Paul III, amidst very little competition. They pretty much chose him because he was sick and old, and they'd hope to get a shot in the near future. Unfortunately, Paul shocked them all, and made them wait fifteen years (after Luther's death).

And if Luther followed in the footsteps of his "contemporaries", Julius and Adrian, he would probably keep his name Martin and become (as suggested above) "Pope Martin VI." Kinda fitting, since the last Martin (Martin V) ended the Western Schism 100 years or so before. The ones who were changing their names at this time, were usually nephews (or grandchildren) of previous Popes by that name.
 
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On the topic of Luther's antisemitism: since early on he was relatively non-antisemitic(IIRC he didn't become the astonishingly nasty antisemite he wound up until Jews didn't convert to Lutheranism) it is possible that there are enough butterflies from whatever prevents his excommunication to keep him from becoming a virulent antisemite. Of course, it's also possible that his reforms lead him down the same path, which will be bad(in the short term at least) for Europe's Jews. Based on what happend to Sephardi Jews OTL, I think TTL would see some serious emigration from Italy and some of the southeastern Catholic-dominated areas to the Ottoman empire, probably to the Ottoman's benefit given what happened TTL.
 
I am a Lutheran and have studied Luther to a degree. . .

and he wrote “On the Jews and their Lies” right after his daughter died. His views on Anti-Sematism were quite strange, but he certainly did not advocate killing all the Jews, or anything like that. Another book that blacked his reputation and made him seen as an elitist was the book he wrote advocating the crushing of the German Peasants Revolt.



see here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants'_War

You might make him Pope if his concerns are met and he is treated seriously and not persecuted before he starts to read and study the Bible. He also could use a serious shot of compassion and understanding, and maybe he should marry Catherine Von Bora earlier. The more he looked at the original, Greek bibles, the more he found that everything that the Roman Catholic Church was doing was completely wrong, and he became terribly disillusioned with the Church as a whole. Luther was a man who believed wholeheartedly in everything he did. He had a love affair with the Church that ended in a bitter divorce. He did everything a good monk should do, and mortified his flesh. He finally rediscovered God, a loving God, not a God of judgement and wrath. And his life (and the world) would never be the same again.
 
Pope Martin would be something like this: Assuming he doesn't butterfly away Wikipedia formatting

Pope Martin.png

Pope Martin.png
 
Oh I like this idea!

It seems to me that one of the main problems was that the Church was both a religious power and a secular power. I think if this is going to work Pope Martin will need to seperate out the two.

Whilst Pope Martin was altering the religious aspects (which may include using using the printing press and even translating the bible into non Latin languages), he would need a Chancellor who could sort out the inefficentcies and corruption of the Papal State. With a reliable source of income coming in the Church would not need indulgencies and other money making schemes.

I can see something like the Council of Trent being called earlier and the Reformation being an internal change, in the same way that the Counter-Reformation was in OTL.
 
I tend to believe that if his candidacy would ever be discussed in a conclave it would be only as a compromise candidate... After Alexander VI Cardinals elected Italians as Popes with the notable exception of Adrian VI whose name was brought forward by Giulio de Medici when it became clear that the Medici party couldnt gather enough votes for election (also the German/Dutch Cardinal unexpectedly won the support of the Colonna's faction when French Cardinals proposed Colonna's bitter rival Orsini as a candidate)
So for Martin Cardinal Luther to be elected Pope all he needs to do is gain the trust of either Giulio de Medici or Alessandro Farnese (Colonna would have supported him if Luther had the protection of the German Electors...) and when the Conclave is deadlocked Medici or Farnese would drop his name on the table...
 
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