How late can Welsh national identity be subsumed into English?

I know that technically Wales was part of England up until the mid-20th century, but Welsh national identity was obviously reasserting itself before that. There were Welsh sports teams around the turn of the 20th century, for example. But how late a POD can be used for the country to follow the Cornish route, and merely be a strong regional, albeit Celtic, identity within a broader English one?

I hate this scenario. But possibly Richard III's Victory at the Battle of Bosworth?

That's pretty early though: nationalism emerged several centuries later. I would have thought it would have been possible much later, but I wonder if any one else has clearer thoughts?

If things go differently, even a relatively late POD would suffice. Welsh identity is a fairly tenuous thing, really. In terms of material culture and subsistence, religion, politics and family patterns, the Welsh don't differ much from the English. What the identiy latched on to early is language. Now, Europeans can talk a good game about bloodlines and faith of our fathers, but language is really what national identity boiled down to. If you spoke the language at a certain point, you were in. That is why Wends and Obodrites are Germans now, but Schleswig Danes and Sorbs aren't.

If the great majority of Welsh spoke English by 1750, they would today be as 'Celtic' as many a Wiccan from Essex. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Welsh settlement patterns and cultural developments to say how this could be achieved. Greater urbanisation, perhaps?

I'd argue that almost all the way up to the end of the nineteenth century "Welshness" was teetering on the verge of extinction.

Certainly the disestablishment of the Anglican Church in Wales (say in 1828 at the time of the repeal of the Test /Corporation Acts which forbid non-conformists to hold office) would have helped and the avoidance of the "Blue Book" scandal and generally better education provision may have led to the "South Welsh" culture dominating the whole country and eventually becoming just another region of Britain.

By the time the Anglican Church was disestablished, the precedent of Irish independance was already in place and later measures to promote Welsh culture seem to have preserved a separate Welsh identity

Interesting you've picked up on the religion point. From what I've read, it seems like preservation of the Welsh language depended a lot on having independent nonconformist Welsh-language churches. Perhaps if non-conformism was more accepted within the Church of England in the 18th & 19th centuries, the Welsh churches would not have been as popular? Would preserving Whig dominance in parliament allow this?

Socrates said:

Interesting you've picked up on the religion point. From what I've read, it seems like preservation of the Welsh language depended a lot on having independent nonconformist Welsh-language churches. Perhaps if non-conformism was more accepted within the Church of England in the 18th & 19th centuries, the Welsh churches would not have been as popular? Would preserving Whig dominance in parliament allow this?

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My take on it would be that the non-conformist churches represented a bastion of welsh identity against the English. Take away the conflict over their status and this role diminishes (just another church).

As to how to achieve it - very difficult. A good start would be Lord John Russel instead of Lord Melbourne as PM after Grey. Conflict with William IV and Peel would be inevitable but it might just squeak through in the aftermath of the Reform Bill

Essentially, there are two parts to Wales. English Wales, and Welsh Wales. Cardiff, Newport and the Rest of Glamorgan, Southern Powys and Pembrokeshire are English Wales. Gwynedd, Northern Powys and the rest of Dyfed are Welsh Wales. The main reasons for this are that essentially English Wales (with the exception of Pembrokeshire which relates to settlement by Norman Barons for defence) has all the best farmland, the largest deposits of key resources and the best ports and links to England and the Continent.

To shrink Welsh Wales, what is needed is a situation similar to the Clearances in Scotland- perhaps a rebellion by the Welsh- that leads to the people being pushed out of Dyfed and Powys, essentially making Welsh Wales into Gwynedd.