WI Canada stays french

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I know its been discussed before but what would have happened if the French defeated the Brits on the Plains of Abraham. Give me your most realistic view of what could have happened with New France. And all of that without changing the current boundaries of the US (or not too much).

If you guys can give me a link where i could find some good AH on that subject (french win on the Plains), please do!
 
Well, New France probably means that the Americans don't mind as much the stationing of British troops- After all, those French could invade at any minute! So a Boston Massacre is less likely, and from there you end up with no ARW, the French Revolution is thus less likely...
 
Archangel Michael said:
but maybe all of British North America.
A bit extreme... Would France even want it? The British colonies had far larger populations than the French colonies... This may be a way to get an early USA (maybe even a monarchist one!), if the British-Americans rebel...
 
Imajin said:
A bit extreme... Would France even want it? The British colonies had far larger populations than the French colonies... This may be a way to get an early USA (maybe even a monarchist one!), if the British-Americans rebel...

Maybe not alll of British North America, but the Ohio River Valley (pretty much everything between the Appalachians and the Mississippi) would become French.
 
Archangel Michael said:
Maybe not alll of British North America, but the Ohio River Valley (pretty much everything between the Appalachians and the Mississippi) would become French.
I agree with you on that part... Might Nova Scotia/Acadia be returned to France?
 
If the British lose on the Plains of Abraham then possibly France gets to keep a few bits of Quebec. This war, like the previous, would be determined by the outcome in Europe and once the new Tsar sought peace with his great hero, the king of Prussia, France and Austria were beaten.

More importantly, a victory on the Plains would mean France was reduced to defending the core territories of New France, and isolated areas like the Ohio Valley would still be lost.

Check out the previous three French-British wars, where the treaty terms in North America often had little or no similarity to the facts on the ground.
 
Grimm Reaper said:
If the British lose on the Plains of Abraham then possibly France gets to keep a few bits of Quebec. This war, like the previous, would be determined by the outcome in Europe and once the new Tsar sought peace with his great hero, the king of Prussia, France and Austria were beaten.

Maybe a second PoD could be Tsarina Yelizaveta surviving a few more years.
 

Valamyr

Banned
The ohio river valley was theorically under french sovereignty, like most of North America, and a conclusion favorable to France would likely uphold that fact. However, the favorable conclusion would need to be won in Europe as much as in Quebec.

Like it was said, facts on the grounds were not always determinant in treaties, at least facts on *american* grounds. Europe was the critical theater.

So if the Czarina lives on, and France wins the 7 years war, yes, a large part of North America would likely remain french, though the big issue for France, then, is making sure enough french speaking people live in America to uphold the claim.

Realistically, I could see Quebec, Ontario, and some territory south of the great lakes remaining French, which would possibly later on mean a pretty different US-Canadian border in the west. Nova Scotia and Acadia (and Rupert's lands someday) could go to France, but Newfoundland is deeply english at that point.

The remaining questions are, how long until the political situation in France or her colonies allow to increase immigration by loosening up the laws that restricted it to french catholics, and whether or not this would impact the French Revolution. A victory in the 7 years wars likely would delay it significantly, along with any meaningful reforms in New France.
 
We need a bigger POD than that. Great Britain basically swept the table in the war, taking whatever it really desired, and did not show much interest in Prussia(NOT a traditional ally) once this was done. In fact, London actually gave back several rich sugar islands to France at the peace conference!

Apparently a glut was threatening to ruin the market.

Once Great Britain has the seas and the colonies, we need a POD to change that or Quebec falls.

Also, it would require a MASSIVE French victory over the British to save the Ohio Valley.

The great French fortress near the mouth of the Saint Lawrence fell easily to the British in the 'War of Jenkin's Ear' but the entire place was returned due to English lapses in Europe. But given England's disinterest towards Prussia, there would exist the real possibility that London might not make sacrifices on Prussia's behalf.

Of course, in the worst case scenario we have a disaster for France. The US is rising fast, and can already wage a small war on its own, by 1775 the loyal and true English thirteen colonies can field several times as many men as French North America ever had and they swallow it all.

Even worse, by that time certain minor political and taxation squabbles were pleasantly resolved, with the American Commonwealth maintaining a useful addition to the British forces and American MPs arriving in London.

Where will this world of Anglo-American unity go to?
 

Hendryk

Banned
An interesting butterfly: if France keeps most or all of Canada and the Ohio valley, and the 13 colonies, concerned about their security, tone down their grievances so that no ARW takes place, then France won't blow its budget supporting the American independentists, thus making the 1789 revolution much less likely. This has been said before. But another factor to take into consideration is that, in the late 18th century, French population was the highest in Europe, with many rural areas de facto overpopulated. In OTL this impending demographic crisis was "resolved" by the mass casualties of the Napoleonian wars. But without a Revolution, those wars wouldn't take place, and France would enter the 19th century with more people than it can handle. How convenient: it has large, nearly empty colonies across the Atlantic.
So to sum it up, keeping Canada French would indirectly create the conditions for mass French migration to North America. Now, whether one of the migrants would be a young, ambitious former artillery officer from Corsica is anyone's guess... :rolleyes:
 
Hendryk said:
An interesting butterfly: if France keeps most or all of Canada and the Ohio valley, and the 13 colonies, concerned about their security, tone down their grievances so that no ARW takes place, then France won't blow its budget supporting the American independentists, thus making the 1789 revolution much less likely. This has been said before.
However with colonists from the 13 colonies still pressing on French-held territory another Anglo-French war is likely to break out before long making France blow its budget anyway, quite likely leading to Revolution (though not at precisely the same dates)
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Valamyr said:
The ohio river valley was theorically under french sovereignty, like most of North America, and a conclusion favorable to France would likely uphold that fact. However, the favorable conclusion would need to be won in Europe as much as in Quebec.

Like it was said, facts on the grounds were not always determinant in treaties, at least facts on *american* grounds. Europe was the critical theater.

So if the Czarina lives on, and France wins the 7 years war, yes, a large part of North America would likely remain french, though the big issue for France, then, is making sure enough french speaking people live in America to uphold the claim.

Realistically, I could see Quebec, Ontario, and some territory south of the great lakes remaining French, which would possibly later on mean a pretty different US-Canadian border in the west. Nova Scotia and Acadia (and Rupert's lands someday) could go to France, but Newfoundland is deeply english at that point.

The remaining questions are, how long until the political situation in France or her colonies allow to increase immigration by loosening up the laws that restricted it to french catholics, and whether or not this would impact the French Revolution. A victory in the 7 years wars likely would delay it significantly, along with any meaningful reforms in New France.


If this happens, then what about OTL Lousiana ? Would that remain Spanish ?

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf said:
If this happens, then what about OTL Lousiana ? Would that remain Spanish ?

Grey Wolf
It was only given to Spain by the French-Indian War... if we assume a French victory there, then why would Spain even get it?
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Imajin said:
It was only given to Spain by the French-Indian War... if we assume a French victory there, then why would Spain even get it?

Oh was it ? Damn this is all very confusing... :(

I've got a couple of books on order which I hope will make it a lot clearer to me what the Hell was going on in N America in the 18th century

Sorry

Grey Wolf
moron
 
goleafsgo said:
I know its been discussed before but what would have happened if the French defeated the Brits on the Plains of Abraham. Give me your most realistic view of what could have happened with New France. And all of that without changing the current boundaries of the US (or not too much).

Bugger all, the French would still have been defeated in the West Indies, the Atlantic, India and Europe. If the British had really wanted Canada then they could have negotiated an exchange for it in 1763, more than likely for Guadalope.
Alternatively the French keep Canada, which they still have to garrison and supply from Metropolitan France. On the other hand Britain retains Guadalope, then the most productive of the West Indian sugar islands. The resulting impact of the economy of the French entrepot ports could lead to a speeding up of the revolution by a year or two.
 
What about pre-Plains of Abraham, if the British and colonial forces had cont'd to suffer reverses at French and Indian hands such as the Monongahela and at Ticonderoga to a much greater extent and without any significant victories on land by 1760/61 ?
 
Leaping forward to 1940, a French controled enclave colony of Quebec or similar portion of Canada has interesting implications for US entry into WWII.

Lets assume the Brits dont want a French & Catholic population & are satisfied with control of the Ohio, western Great lakes, and maritime provences. The French get to retain their bit around Toronto - Montreal. That survives the Napoleonic wars, given back to the Bourbon throne after 1814.
 
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