"The Caesariad"

[Arrix85]

I just caught up with this TL. It's quite riveting, well written and obviously I've subscribed.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Grand Prince Paul II.

The Caesarians are done.
The question is, who will finish them, the new duumvirate, local rebels who oppose the pillage of their provinces or a backstabbing Egyptian queen?

The Octavianus-Pompeius alliance is too good to last, isn't it?

I don't know. From what's been hinted before the three blocs will be allied against the new threat from the east. However how that will occur I don't know as for all its wealth Egypt doesn't have the power to be a serious threat at this point. Also since Brutus is mentioned as the third of the three I presume he doesn't take up Cleo's offer. [Or possibly does but there is a falling out before too long].

Possibly a combination of Antonious excesses in the far east and the tax gathering of the other members of Brutus's gang means that there is a lot of unrest and anti-Roman feeling that the Egyptians, or whatever we call them, gathers a really powerful force.

Excellent to see this back and the plot thickens nicely.

Steve

[Hero of Canton]

EdT,

At long last an update! And what a masterwork! You have outdone even yourself with this latest one! Being unable to resist the wiles of Cleopatra VII, I am compelled to lobby for her dark-horse victory against all odds. It is also very cool that you make Caesarion's paternity obvious to any with eyes.

BTW do the Centurions Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus exist in this ATL?

Hero of Canton

[EdT]

First up, really glad that people liked this chapter, it’s not the only twist that the second part of the TL has, but it certainly changes the landscape considerably. Particularly glad you’ve subscribed, Arrix85- it’s always a pleasure to have new readers.

Originally Posted by Ganesha

Seconded (Thirded?). Caesarion will almost certainly end up dead, or else controlled by one of the factions. But probably dead, and Cleopatra along with him. Combined, they're far too potent a force to be left alive for long by any of the factions, especially Octavianus.

A lot will depend on what Caesarion is actually like, of course- so far all we know is that he looks disturbingly like Caesar, but is he a chip off the old block or a rather feeble imitation? If he’s got Caesar’s mind as well as his body, then that’s a considerably different proposition than a Caesar clone who’s an amiable dunce, or worse, somebody who genuinely thinks he is a reincarnation of his father, just without any of the ability and self-awareness.

There’s also the matter of his age. As the PoD is 54BC, realistically speaking Caesarion is not going to be much older than his mid-teens by November 36BC, and is probably going to be even younger. So even if he is a child genius (and Octavian proves it can be done IOTL) that’ll likely be a factor.

The smarter he is, ironically enough, the more quickly he may realise that the biggest drag on any ambition he might have (and having this ambition is not a given, of course) to rule Rome is actually his mother, who is incapable of endearing herself to Rome in the same way he can. Caesarion is after all only one asp away from being Ptolemy XV Caesar, with all the access to Egyptian riches that this implies!

This goes both ways though, and the idea of separating Caesarion from Cleopatra and making him a puppet will be immensely appealing to pretty much every other faction, with the exception of Octavianus, who will realise that he’s an existential threat and will do all he can to have him killed.

Originally Posted by Grand Prince Paul II.

The Caesarians are done.
The question is, who will finish them, the new duumvirate, local rebels who oppose the pillage of their provinces or a backstabbing Egyptian queen?

The Octavianus-Pompeius alliance is too good to last, isn't it?

The Caesarians are certainly on the back foot, but it’s a little early to call them completely out of it just yet. Brutus still has plenty of legions, he just doesn’t have the money to pay for them. Cleopatra can definitely solve that problem. Plus she wants Brutus’ babies, which might sweeten the arrangement. And bringing in a foreigner for everyone in the command tent to hate might just distract the vultures from circling over Brutus’ own wounded form…

So there’s probably scope for a deal there, at least at first- both parties will despise each other and plot mutual destruction of course, but what else is new?

As for the Octavianus-Pompeius arrangement, it is a bit chummy, yes, but mainly only at the top. This is not so much of a problem for Octavian, as he’s got a pretty good grip on his own faction, but Sextus Pompeius is uncomfortably aware that he’s only in charge because he’s the older brother- if it came down to it, most of the Pompeian troops (if not their commanders) would side with Quintus. And Quintus knows this.…

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

And that's a really anti-climactic way for Marc Antony to do. Choking on his own puke after trying to drink away the shame of losing an Eagle.

How'd the Eagle get lost? I was under the impression the expedition was an overall success, with all the loot Antony brought back.

Was it a matter of the Eagle being stolen instead of a legion being lost?

We can’t all have dramatic deaths, sadly- and if anyone is going to fall over drunk and choke on their vomit in this TL, it’s Antonius. He seems to have needed somebody to keep him on the straight and narrow throughout his life, and my view was that with that taken away, he’d not fare wonderfully. Plus, to be frank I needed him dead for plot reasons- it’s complicated enough as it is.

As for the Eagle, I saw the expedition as being easily capable of taking Tylos (Bahrain), which was Antonius’ official target. Given the island’s economic importance, this will yield a very rich booty, so I see this part of the expedition being a tremendous success. Unfortunately, Antonius doesn’t quit while he’s ahead. He gets hooked on stories of the riches of the desert interior (he had a weakness for sycophants IOTL so I don’t think that’s much of a stretch), decides to lead a force further down the coast of the Persian Gulf, and gets ambushed and badly mauled by the locals somewhere in what is now the UAE.

It’s a humiliation, but not a fatal one- what it does do however, is taint the rest of the expedition, especially as I rather assumed some of the Tylos spoils would have been lost along the way. And for Antonius, assuming that Brutus will be sitting pretty in Rome and the entire city will be laughing at his failure, goes into a bit of a self-destructive cycle, as he did (IIRC) the first time he cocked up the invasion of Armenia.

Originally Posted by mrmandias

The brilliance of this TL just grows and grows. Explaining away why somebody goodlooking who is a bad guy (Caesarion) must have really been badlooking is such a Classical touch.

Thanks. I thought it rang true,- god knows enough silly, over the top accusations were flung around in the period, so why not the David Icke theory? Plus, I think it’s rather fun to introduce the golem/replicant concept into the period. I’m sure ITTL a lot of authors will have a lot of fun with it.

Originally Posted by stevep

I don't know. From what's been hinted before the three blocs will be allied against the new threat from the east. However how that will occur I don't know as for all its wealth Egypt doesn't have the power to be a serious threat at this point. Also since Brutus is mentioned as the third of the three I presume he doesn't take up Cleo's offer. [Or possibly does but there is a falling out before too long].

All plausible, although there’s a third option you didn’t mention there- remember the Caesariad is quite happy to twist the historical facts to its purpose…

Originally Posted by stevep

I Possibly a combination of Antonious excesses in the far east and the tax gathering of the other members of Brutus's gang means that there is a lot of unrest and anti-Roman feeling that the Egyptians, or whatever we call them, gathers a really powerful force.

Wait and see!

Originally Posted by Hero of Canton

At long last an update! And what a masterwork! You have outdone even yourself with this latest one! Being unable to resist the wiles of Cleopatra VII, I am compelled to lobby for her dark-horse victory against all odds. It is also very cool that you make Caesarion's paternity obvious to any with eyes.

Glad you approve- and yeah, I thought the best way to make Caesarion a threat would be by having him very much as Caesar’s genuine son- all the other contenders are Caesar’s heir in slightly different ways, so it makes sense to throw the real Caesar (or, more accurately somebody the others see as the real Caesar) into the mix.

As for his chances? All I’ll say is that he outlives more than one of the other central characters…

Originally Posted by Hero of Canton

BTW do the Centurions Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus exist in this ATL?

Oh, I’m sure they’re around somewhere- hadn’t really given that much thought as to where though. On balance, given what happened to the 11th Legion IOTL, I suspect that the two will have taken part in the conquest of Persia and the March on Rome, although after that it’s anyone’s guess- they equally well could have ended up with Brutus in Greece or as part of Octavian’s force.

You know what? I might just throw in a cameo- later on I have an anonymous centurion do something rather significant, and it’d be nice to have a real character do the deed.

Co-incidentally I bought the first season of Rome on DVD yesterday- will be interesting to see how much I want to throw stuff at the TV when I see it!

[Hero of Canton]

Originally Posted by EdT

...Oh, I’m sure they’re around somewhere- hadn’t really given that much thought as to where though. On balance, given what happened to the 11th Legion IOTL, I suspect that the two will have taken part in the conquest of Persia and the March on Rome, although after that it’s anyone’s guess- they equally well could have ended up with Brutus in Greece or as part of Octavian’s force.

You know what? I might just throw in a cameo- later on I have an anonymous centurion do something rather significant, and it’d be nice to have a real character do the deed.

Co-incidentally I bought the first season of Rome on DVD yesterday- will be interesting to see how much I want to throw stuff at the TV when I see it!

Treat yourself and watch that puppy. Though not without flaws it is IMHO the best depiction of the Late Republic I've seen, plus you have some first-rate veteran actors (many from the BBC) having fun with their characters. The Titus Pullo character is my favorite. To me he's like a smarter Jayne Cobb from Firefly/Serenity.

Hero of Canton

[Basileus Giorgios]

Here's a question- I'm currently wading my way through a book called "Pleasures of Rome" for my degree, and it mentions something I'd forgotten about until now; that is, Caesar's grand building projects in Rome. Without the assassination, how many of these have gone ahead? The book quotes the planned diversion of the Tiber, and Caesar's intent to create massive libraries of both Latin and Greek books. Have these been built, or did Caesar's absence in the East mean they got bogged down in petty bureaucracy and local rivalries?

EDIT- Just remembered that Pompey of course survives ITTL, so this raises the question as to whether Caesar even chose to design these buildings in the first place. I know Pompey was fond of grand designs IOTL, so did he set any big construction projects rolling in his later years of life? Or does Rome ITTL's 36BC look similar to Rome IOTL's 36BC?

[Ares96]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

EDIT- Just remembered that Pompey of course survives ITTL, so this raises the question as to whether Caesar even chose to design these buildings in the first place. I know Pompey was fond of grand designs IOTL, so did he set any big construction projects rolling in his later years of life? Or does Rome ITTL's 36BC look similar to Rome IOTL's 36BC?

He posted a map of Rome at the beginning of the civil war here, which I would think is mostly OTL. The Tiber certainly hasn't been diverted, or at least not the part of it that's visible on the map.

[Magnum]

wow. awesome update.

one small question. You say that Anthony brought lots of wealth from the gulf, and then also set about confiscating statues, temple property etc., leaving the land poor. However, the legions haven't been paid either. So, if it's neither in the treasury, nor with the troops, nor with the locals, where did all the money go exactly ?

[Space Oddity]

I'd say, into what Antony choked on.

[Hero of Canton]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Here's a question- I'm currently wading my way through a book called "Pleasures of Rome" for my degree, and it mentions something I'd forgotten about until now; that is, Caesar's grand building projects in Rome. Without the assassination, how many of these have gone ahead? The book quotes the planned diversion of the Tiber, and Caesar's intent to create massive libraries of both Latin and Greek books. Have these been built, or did Caesar's absence in the East mean they got bogged down in petty bureaucracy and local rivalries?

EDIT- Just remembered that Pompey of course survives ITTL, so this raises the question as to whether Caesar even chose to design these buildings in the first place. I know Pompey was fond of grand designs IOTL, so did he set any big construction projects rolling in his later years of life? Or does Rome ITTL's 36BC look similar to Rome IOTL's 36BC?

Without the horrible economic consequences of years of civil war IMHO Pompey Magnus and Gaius Julius Caesar could have brought many of those projects to fruition. BUT if they did then why is Octavianus having to build another aqueduct?

My favorite from the shorter list of things that made good economic sense was the building of a major port for grain ships down in Ostia.

Hero of Canton

[Antipater]

Originally Posted by Magnum

wow. awesome update.

one small question. You say that Anthony brought lots of wealth from the gulf, and then also set about confiscating statues, temple property etc., leaving the land poor. However, the legions haven't been paid either. So, if it's neither in the treasury, nor with the troops, nor with the locals, where did all the money go exactly ?

Probably stolen by the senior officers while their general was carousing and drinking himself to death. Nothing bold, just an ingot here, a few denarii there, but given time and lax supervision it only takes a few men with deep pockets to make even a hoard of gold disappear without a trace.

Alternatively Antony could have used the gold to hire a horde of Scythian horsemen to sweep down from the North and descend on the unsuspecting Romans at an inopportune moment...however EdT sees fit to resolve the situation with the gold I am sure it will be interesting!

[Magnum]

Originally Posted by Antipater

Alternatively Antony could have used the gold to hire a horde of Scythian horsemen to sweep down from the North and descend on the unsuspecting Romans at an inopportune moment...

Why one earth would he do that ?

Wait a minute. Which unsuspecting Romans ? Hope you don't mean his own. Even drunk, he wouldn't be insane enough to order such a thing, and no man would carry out such an order. If his troops found out, they would mutiny.

And if it's the Pompeians and Octavian, then said schytians would have to cross Dacia, Pannonia and the Alps, so I doubt they would bother to go in the first place. Probably they'd just take the money and be on their merry way.

[Analytical Engine]

Having actually read the update now (), does that mean there's a Roman Bahrain now?

[EdT]

Originally Posted by Hero of Canton

Treat yourself and watch that puppy. Though not without flaws it is IMHO the best depiction of the Late Republic I've seen, plus you have some first-rate veteran actors (many from the BBC) having fun with their characters. The Titus Pullo character is my favorite. To me he's like a smarter Jayne Cobb from Firefly/Serenity.

Oh good, I have to say I was a bit sceptical but it was on special offer so I thought I might as well give it a go. Always nice to find a new thing to watch!

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Here's a question- I'm currently wading my way through a book called "Pleasures of Rome" for my degree, and it mentions something I'd forgotten about until now; that is, Caesar's grand building projects in Rome. Without the assassination, how many of these have gone ahead? The book quotes the planned diversion of the Tiber, and Caesar's intent to create massive libraries of both Latin and Greek books. Have these been built, or did Caesar's absence in the East mean they got bogged down in petty bureaucracy and local rivalries?

More the latter, I think, although Pompeius spends quite a lot of money on some of his own projects, like the Saepta Julia. My idea of how Rome looks in 36BC ITTL as opposed to OTL is that it’s not massively different, although with fewer, rather tackier grand new buildings put up while Caesar was in the East. Even OTL by this point the place was looking very shabby, and this seems as much because of bad government as the Civil Wars- I expect that to be pretty much the same ITTL., with the added problem that the events surrounding Labienus occupation of the city have caused quite a lot of damage.

Whoever ends up in charge will have ample opportunity to rebuild in marble.

Originally Posted by Hero of Canton

My favourite from the shorter list of things that made good economic sense was the building of a major port for grain ships down in Ostia.

I agree- given the political situation in Rome I felt that Caesar might have been rather tempted to concentrate any building outside the city. Ostia is an excellent example- plus, as we’ll have mentioned in a couple of chapters, Caesar also had a reasonably good go at draining the Pomptine Marshes to provide land for his veterans. Nothing as grandiose as the Tiber diversion though…

Originally Posted by Magnum

One small question. You say that Anthony brought lots of wealth from the gulf, and then also set about confiscating statues, temple property etc., leaving the land poor. However, the legions haven't been paid either. So, if it's neither in the treasury, nor with the troops, nor with the locals, where did all the money go exactly ?

A number of places, none of them particularly helpful. I imagine a non-trivial bit of the spoils from Tylos were also lost in the Arabian desert somewhere along with the Eagle. And as Space Oddity mentions, an awful lot was spent on Antonius’ epic binge, so wine, food, wild animals and entertainers, other methods of conspicuous consumption, and so on. Antonius was a man, remember, who managed to be 250 talents in debt by his 20th birthday- he had ridiculously expensive tastes even by Roman standards, and being the new Dionysus does not come cheap.

However, I suspect Antipater also has an excellent point, and almost as much, if not more, was simply appropriated by various unscrupulous individuals during the period when Mesopotamia was not being adequately governed. The tax farmers would doubtless be taking an even bigger cut than usual without anyone to watch their activities, the senior officers who remained sober were probably ensuring the odd talent of gold or that nice statue they’d had their eye on for some time quietly disappeared, the cleverer Centurions might have ensured a happy retirement by making the odd payroll wagon vanish into thin air, and so on.

I imagine a lot of functionaries made rather a lot of money selling back confiscated items to their original owners, while by the end the locals were probably wandering into the Royal Palace and picking up whatever they could find.

So in conclusion? Frittered away all over the place, probably softening the blow of the original confiscations but of no help to anyone in political terms.

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

Having actually read the update now (), does that mean there's a Roman Bahrain now?

Good question- it’s a bit out on a limb but given the island’s importance, and the fact that it had recently been under Persian rule, I can see Antonius deciding to garrison the place instead of leaving it under a friendly government. Given the lack of detail about the place in the period however, it’s difficult to make a more detailed guess.

[Darth_Kiryan]

That was kinda a bittersweet ending for Marc Antony. Not sure that was a good way for a Roman, of all people to end up dying.

[Hero of Canton]

Originally Posted by EdT

Oh good, I have to say I was a bit sceptical but it was on special offer so I thought I might as well give it a go. Always nice to find a new thing to watch!

IMHO season one was superior to season two, but there is a very good reason for that. HBO made it clear before starting production of season two that there would be no season three unless the ratings went WAY UP. Bruno Heller (creator and primary writer) made the decision to try to tell the rest of his story (Death of the Republic -- Birth of the Empire) in one more season instead of the five more he had been initially promised by HBO. If you buy or rent season 2 this is all revealed in one of the episode commentaries -- I cannot remember which one though.

Originally Posted by EdT

I agree- given the political situation in Rome I felt that Caesar might have been rather tempted to concentrate any building outside the city. Ostia is an excellent example- plus, as we’ll have mentioned in a couple of chapters, Caesar also had a reasonably good go at draining the Pomptine Marshes to provide land for his veterans. Nothing as grandiose as the Tiber diversion though…

What about building a Roman equivalent of the Library @ Alexandria? Or did the original survive the Alexandrian War unburned in this ATL?

Hero of Canton

[Antipater]

Originally Posted by Magnum

Why one earth would he do that ?

Wait a minute. Which unsuspecting Romans ? Hope you don't mean his own. Even drunk, he wouldn't be insane enough to order such a thing, and no man would carry out such an order. If his troops found out, they would mutiny.

And if it's the Pompeians and Octavian, then said schytians would have to cross Dacia, Pannonia and the Alps, so I doubt they would bother to go in the first place. Probably they'd just take the money and be on their merry way.

I was not trying to be serious. I just wanted to point out that it would be possible for the author of this awesome TL to use the missing gold to cause some kind of deus ex machina event later on.

By the way, by the first century century BC there were Sarmatian hordes as far west as the Danube. I don't know what kind of settlements existed in Dacia at this time, but the terrain of the Hungarian Plain stretches into Pannonia, making it conceivable that an army of horse archers could make it to at least Illyricum. Probably could not make it past Cisalpine Gaul, but would no doubt cause sheer panic in Rome.

[V-J]

Originally Posted by EdT

As Cicero says, homosexuality was rather frowned upon in Rome, not that it necessarily stopped anyone. What went on in the provinces generally stayed in the provinces, and if a Roman was that way inclined he could just bugger off to Greece (no pun intended) and indulge to his heart’s content. But in Rome, getting caught was pretty scandalous, to the extent that the slur about Caesar and King Nicomedes was quite a powerful and destructive thing to be bandied about.

This isn't really true and I'm surprised since you seemed to be keeping things on a very realistic basis with the constant effeminacy-bashing, which was the real problem for the Romans; if you look at the attacks on Caesar from Dolabella etc then the constant references are to him as being Nicomedes' Queen. ('Caesar fucked the Gauls but Nicomedes fucked Caesar' as the troops rather more crudely put it.) The same for Octavian, incidentally, who was constantly having the piss taken out of him for supposedly being a passive homo. I think mostly it was just parr for the course politically as reputation and character assasination were. (I think in Octavian's case it probably had a lot to do with his lack of military ability which you've already touched on, as for the Romans success on the battlefield was very much linked into virility; presumably Quintus won't have this problem) But active fucking was pretty much fully OK irrespective of who it was, barring your neighbour's son of course. (Male prostitutes even got their own official feast day)

Anyway, this seems terribly rude considering it's only my first proper appearence in the thread, but I am reading up fully, I promise. Too much interest in the above over the last few weeks....

[MerryPrankster]

The Samartians might be a good "threat from the East" since Persia has been gutted and Egypt subordinated.

[EdT]

Hi all,

Just to say that while there will be an update soon, it won't be today as scheduled. Terribly sorry. I've got a little sidetracked researching my next project, which will be the third installment in my very tenuous "British Political History goes off the rails" trilogy. Without giving anything else away, it'll be called "The Bloody Man". You heard it here first...

Anyhow, it's a little difficult to make the mental leap between the period in which it's set and Republican Rome without a significant amount of cognitive dissonance, so the continuing adventures of Caesarion, Brutus, Octavian and Pompey have had to take a back seat for a short period. However, I hope that the delay will be worth it in the long run.