AH Challenge: Second Ottoman Empire

Xen

Banned
Abdul should like this one.


Come up with a scenario with a POD no later than the end of the Crimean War, that allows the Ottoman Empire to stretch from Thrace in Europe to Uighuristan in modern day China. The Arab territory that makes up for Syria, Jordan, Palestine/Israel, and part of Saudi Arabia is still lost, they can keep the northern Kurdish part of Iraq as it hosts a significant Turk population. The Sultan remains on the throne, and the capital in Istanbul.


Persia must remain independent from the Ottoman Empire though.
 
Well, some form of Central Powers victory is the obvious one.
Alternately something in 1878 has potential.
 
Ottoman power...

Wendell said:
WI Turkey sits out of WWI? I considered writing such a TL.

Possible POD--Britian seizes the two Ottoman dreadnoughts as historical. Turkey starts negotiating for their return, when Goeben/Breslau sail into Istanbul. British intelligence gets wind of the possible sale of Goeben to Turkey, (perhaps through wireless intercepts) and decides to return the ships ager some apologies--and ironclad gaurantees from the Ottomans. (Perhaps some debt relief thrown into the mix as well.)
Goeben is duely interned (or better yet, since the ship was sold, the Ottomans remove the German crew and put a Turkish crew aboard. Turkey now has a nice little navy--Erin's not bad, though Agincourt is less than idea, and Goeben/Yavuz is a nice ship. Can't face a major power, but can deter Russia, France, or Italy from ambitions in the middle east. And Middle Eastern oil can fuel a new growth.
Find a way to sit out the second world war as well, protecting the "neutrality" of the oil fields from foreign (Axis) agression, and the Empire could do quite well.
 
Xen said:
Abdul should like this one.


Come up with a scenario with a POD no later than the end of the Crimean War, that allows the Ottoman Empire to stretch from Thrace in Europe to Uighuristan in modern day China. The Arab territory that makes up for Syria, Jordan, Palestine/Israel, and part of Saudi Arabia is still lost, they can keep the northern Kurdish part of Iraq as it hosts a significant Turk population. The Sultan remains on the throne, and the capital in Istanbul.


Persia must remain independent from the Ottoman Empire though.
I prefer a resurgent Ottoman empire where the Arabs bring oil to the table. Makes industrialization easier when you are selling oil for ore and agriproducts you don't produce.
Now if only they could get Madagascar...
 
The Ottomans stay out of WWI. Russia collapses into Civil War. To prevent massacres of ethnic Turks in the Caucasus, the empire invades Caucasia, quickly overrunning it. From there, it is easy to project forces into Central Asia, which is liberated from Russian rule and incorporated into the empire, and Chinese Turkestan revolts and is also incorporated into the empire. Now with an overwhelmingly Turkish population, the Ottoman Empire begins to Turkify, alienating the Arab population. The Arab territories push hard for greater autonomy, and decades later secedes and becomes an independent state although acknowledging the titular supremacy of the Padishah.
 
wkwillis said:
I prefer a resurgent Ottoman empire where the Arabs bring oil to the table. Makes industrialization easier when you are selling oil for ore and agriproducts you don't produce.
Now if only they could get Madagascar...
Why Madagascar?
 

Grey Wolf

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
The Ottomans stay out of WWI. Russia collapses into Civil War. To prevent massacres of ethnic Turks in the Caucasus, the empire invades Caucasia, quickly overrunning it. From there, it is easy to project forces into Central Asia, which is liberated from Russian rule and incorporated into the empire, and Chinese Turkestan revolts and is also incorporated into the empire. Now with an overwhelmingly Turkish population, the Ottoman Empire begins to Turkify, alienating the Arab population. The Arab territories push hard for greater autonomy, and decades later secedes and becomes an independent state although acknowledging the titular supremacy of the Padishah.

Wasn't one major effect of the Ottoman Empire NOT remaining neutral in 1914 that it severely constrained Russia's economy in the South ? If the Ottomans are neutral doesn't Russia have a great advantage in this area over OTL ?

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf said:
Wasn't one major effect of the Ottoman Empire NOT remaining neutral in 1914 that it severely constrained Russia's economy in the South ? If the Ottomans are neutral doesn't Russia have a great advantage in this area over OTL ?

Grey Wolf

Yes. Work with the topic. ;)
 

The Sandman

Banned
The Axis wins World War II, with the Germano-Italian forces in Egypt and the Japanese in India. The Middle East, cut off from supply and being slowly raided into oblivion by the Japanese and Germans, surrenders to the Axis powers in general.

As the Germans and the Japanese are evenly-matched in the area as far as military strength, neither one can simply grab it. The Germans don't want the Japanese or Italians to have it, the Japanese don't want the Italians or Germans to have it, and neither one really cares what the Italians want. The solution? Hand the whole mess back to Turkey and call the result the Ottoman Empire!

PS: I just realized this isn't quite the Empire Xen had in mind, but it seems like a unique idea so I'm going to run with it anyway. Hope no one minds too much. :eek:
 
War ends with a stalemate in the West in 1918 (no US entry maybe or maybe earlier fall of Russia). Germany keeps the areas it took from Russia, Austria-Hungary collapses before the decade is out. France has something close to a failed Commy revolution and finds itself a lot weaker. Peace treaties give over southern Iraq, Syria, Palestine and the Levant to Britain/France as tokens to go with German colonies in Asia and Africa.

The Turks continue there move into Caucasia like they did in OTL seizing Baku with some German help. The Turks clean out the Armenians and have a land bridge between Baku and eastern Turkey, maybe they grip modern day Chechnya and the other majority Muslims areas of Southern Russia. Georgia is an independent puppet of Germany. The Turks get some kind of deal with Germany where they trade oil or allow German oil companies to move in and Germanys continues to supply the Turks for a push into Central Asia. A small Turkish fleet (mainly confiscated Oil tankers) transport the Turks to Turkmenistan where they are meant by follow Turks who are looking to kick the godless Bolsheviks that seized controls of such cities as Samarkhan. After brief fighting with the Reds, they manage to gain all majority Turkish areas.

As to "Second Ottoman Empire" unless you simply have Atatürk seize control of the government and declare himself the new Sultan and to mark the change and how it's a different kind-of empire he renames it the Second Ottoman Empire. Probably to straightforward.
 
Last edited:
Without being at war with Russia, the Armenians pose no threat to the Ottomans and it's highly unlikely they would revolt, so I don't see a repeat of 1915. Note that when the Ottomans swept into the Caucasus in OTL, Armenian civilians were left alone (or as alone as any civilians are left in war).

In this TL there would not likely be an Ataturk, as he got his start at Gallipoli. Here he would be a junior officer by the time Russia collapses.

Otherwise your solution looks good.

Nosb said:
War ends with a stalemate in the West in 1918 (no US entry maybe or maybe earlier fall of Russia). Germany keeps the areas it took from Russia, Austria-Hungary collapses before the decade is out. France has something close to a failed Commy revolution and finds itself a lot weaker. Peace treaties give over southern Iraq, Syria, Palestine and the Levant to Britain/France as tokens to go with German colonies in Asia and Africa.

The Turks continue there move into Caucasia like they did in OTL seizing Baku with some German help. The Turks clean out the Armenians and have a land bridge between Baku and eastern Turkey, maybe they grip modern day Chechnya and the other majority Muslims areas of Southern Russia. Georgia is an independent puppet of Germany. The Turks get some kind of deal with Germany where they trade oil or allow German oil companies to move in and Germanys continues to supply the Turks for a push into Central Asia. A small Turkish fleet (mainly confiscated Oil tankers) transport the Turks to Turkmenistan where they are meant by follow Turks who are looking to kick the godless Bolsheviks that seized controls of such cities as Samarkhan. After brief fighting with the Reds, they manage to gain all majority Turkish areas.

As to "Second Ottoman Empire" unless you simply have Atatürk seize control of the government and declare himself the new Sultan and to mark the change and how it's a different kind-of empire he renames it the Second Ottoman Empire. Probably to straightforward.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
YES! WORK WITH THE TOPIC! :eek: Britain would also have very significant forces freed up.


No Russo-Japanese war. WWI breaks out in 1907 over Some Other Dammn Fool Thing in the Balkans. Without the shakeup given to the system by the war, the Russian army is in even worse shape than OTL 1914, which compensates for Ottoman neutrality.

(According to Paul Kennedy, Russia hit something of a minimum in relative military power vs Germany in the period centering around 1894. Generally, an earlier war works in favor of Germany and against Russia, although Russia gets relatively stronger again as one goes further pre-1894).

Bruce
 
wkwillis said:
Gutta Percha, quinine, balsa, and rubber. All significant military materials. Chocolate wouldn't hurt, either, from a commercial point of view.
Ah, good point.



Might Germany pick up some land from the collapsed Hapsburg Empire?
 
Top