Jews without Israel, post-Holocaust.

If the Zionist plans for Judaization of Palestine had not been backed by Britain, what would have happened to the world's Jewish populations? Would the European Jewry have opted to stay in Europe, or perhaps migrated to America in the absence of Palestine?

And of course their are the Sephardic Jews of the Middle East-their still would have been some degree of persecution I think given the influence of anti-semitic/Nazi propoganda from Europe and opportunistic governments looking for scapegoats. Israel's absence might beget tolerance of them, but it also denies them a haven to flee to in the event of persecution, unless Germany establishes itself as international protector of and refuge for persecuted Jews.
 
The European Jews would go to America. The Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews would likely stay in the Mideast, and would embrace Arab (or whatever country) nationalism, since that was secular. If nasty Islamists come about though, expect emigration.
 
That's not actually necessarily guaranteed, judging from how Iran has a fairly large Jewish population, the largest of any Muslim state in fact.
I know, but it's more likely. By "nasty" I meant Taliban-nasty. There's one Jew in Afghanistan.

Without Israel, Muslim-Jewish relations would be significantly better. In Palestine there would probably be tension between Irgun freaks and the Palestinians, but nothing like OTL.
 
... unless Germany establishes itself as international protector of and refuge for persecuted Jews.

I think this is an interesting and certainly quite possible outcome in this scenario; perhaps several decades after WWII, Germany might constitutionally recognise, the 'special place'* of Jews in the German nation.



*Of course this term wouldn't be used; I just mean that would it be possible for Germany to recognise in an official sense, itself as the de facto home-land of the Jews, alongside ethnic Germans? Are there any examples in the world of nations giving special constitutional recongition to minority populations?
 
There was already a reasonably large Jewish minority in Palestine at the time -- in Tel Aviv for instance. I guess more Jewish refugees could come to Palestine while not actually taking the place over as a "Jewish state".

And then of course there's America, Australia, etc.
 
There was already a reasonably large Jewish minority in Palestine at the time -- in Tel Aviv for instance. I guess more Jewish refugees could come to Palestine while not actually taking the place over as a "Jewish state".

And then of course there's America, Australia, etc.
I thought that before the start of the major influx of Jewish immigration in the 20's, the Jewish population of Palestine lived mostly in Jerusalem itself. Also, if theres no Israel, that will likely butterfly what Islamism will be like as well. Muslims will perceive less of a western presence in the middle east without Israel, so that will make it less of an aggressive ideology. Also without Israel, you may see pan-Arabism limp along for a few more decades then OTL as although "uniting" Arab countries might not work, it could take a while for this to appear as the case, and OTL, pan-Arabism was damaged more by their defeat at the hands of the Israelis then the faliure of the Pan-Arab republic.
 
Are there any examples in the world of nations giving special constitutional recongition to minority populations?

Yes actually, In Canada the French and the Natives get some special constitutional recognition as the founders of Canada, alongside the English.
 
If the Zionist plans for Judaization of Palestine had not been backed by Britain, what would have happened to the world's Jewish populations? Would the European Jewry have opted to stay in Europe, or perhaps migrated to America in the absence of Palestine?

And of course their are the Sephardic Jews of the Middle East-their still would have been some degree of persecution I think given the influence of anti-semitic/Nazi propoganda from Europe and opportunistic governments looking for scapegoats. Israel's absence might beget tolerance of them, but it also denies them a haven to flee to in the event of persecution, unless Germany establishes itself as international protector of and refuge for persecuted Jews.
Why do you assume that this plan was backed by Britain? It wasn't even backed by all the Zionists. The Balfour declaration was in conflict with a few other promises the Brits made. It was all about divide and conquer. In the end they stayed neutral on the partition plan.

Are there any examples in the world of nations giving special constitutional recongition to minority populations?
Goshen is the first recorded example.
I thought that before the start of the major influx of Jewish immigration in the 20's, the Jewish population of Palestine lived mostly in Jerusalem itself. Also, if theres no Israel, that will likely butterfly what Islamism will be like as well. Muslims will perceive less of a western presence in the middle east without Israel, so that will make it less of an aggressive ideology. Also without Israel, you may see pan-Arabism limp along for a few more decades then OTL as although "uniting" Arab countries might not work, it could take a while for this to appear as the case, and OTL, pan-Arabism was damaged more by their defeat at the hands of the Israelis then the faliure of the Pan-Arab republic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca3M2feqJk8

There has been a Muslim/Christian conflict almost since there where Muslims.
 
Last edited:
I think this is an interesting and certainly quite possible outcome in this scenario; perhaps several decades after WWII, Germany might constitutionally recognise, the 'special place'* of Jews in the German nation.

Actually a scenario I "fear" for the future, in case of a failure of the Israeli state. To make matter clear, I do not fear for Germany in this case, but for the fate of the Israeli people.

In the mentioned scenario, though, I am quite sure that not that many more Jews than OTL would opt to settle in the country which caused the Holocaust, i.e. I severely doubt that the Jewish population in Germany would even remotely reach the numbers of the Weimar Republic again.

Concerning the recognition of Jews in Germany; in OTL, it is not constitutional but it is clear throughout the political establishment that there is in fact a special relationship.

I just mean that would it be possible for Germany to recognise in an official sense, itself as the de facto home-land of the Jews, alongside ethnic Germans?

Please be careful here not to fall into the Nazi's trap or putting a racial gap between "Aryans" and Jews. German Jews ARE as ehtnic German as German Catholics and Protestants. The difference is religious.
 
Assume no Balfour declaration and no large scale immigration to Palestime in the 1920s and this becomes plausable
?What large scale immigration ? During the 1920's whe had a average of 10,000 Jews per year moving to Isreal.
The Third Aliyah [1919 - 1923] was triggered by the October Revolution in Russia,
the ensuing pogroms there and in Poland and Hungary.
Along with the British conquest of Palestine and the Balfour Declaration.
Approximately 40,000 Jews arrived [OTL] in Palestine during this time.
Of these about 8,000 then left.

The Fourth Aliyah [1924 -1929] was a direct result of the economic crisis and anti-Jewish policies in Poland, along with the introduction of stiff immigration quotas by the United States.
The Fourth Aliyah brought 82,000 Jews to British-occupied Palestine, of whom 23,000 left.
============
And then of course there's America, Australia, etc.
See underlined in above Quote.
 
There are several points which have to be addressed before this question can be answered reasonably.

1. Do Zionists still migrate to Palestine from the close of the nineteenth century to the start of the Second World War as per our timeline? If so, then whatever state governs the cisjordan will have a significant Jewish population, atleast at first. If not, then the economic life in whatever becomes of the Cisjordan is much worse due to the lack of Zionist irrigation projects.

2. Does the presumed point of departure stem from the lack of a Balfour declaration on the question of a Jewish homeland. If so, then butterflies suggest that there could be start differenves between 1917 and 1945 unless one can homestly contend that the lack of Balfour's letter will really have next to no effect on events in Europe or Palestine for thirty years after the POD.

3. If there is no Israel for whatever reason, is the Cisjordan under the same government as the Transjordan, or will the two be separate after the British leave, thenever that occurs in the alternate timeline.
 
Please be careful here not to fall into the Nazi's trap or putting a racial gap between "Aryans" and Jews. German Jews ARE as ehtnic German as German Catholics and Protestants. The difference is religious.

OTOH, you are in danger of falling into two common traps:


1/Assuming that 'Jewishness' is a solely religious identity. This is wrong; Jewish identity is quite complex in terms of definition, but it can be viewed as a religious, ethnic and cultural identity. For instance, under Israel's Law of Return, a person who is a Christian, but who has at least one ethnically Jewish grandparent is eligible to immigrate to Israel (ie ethnic definition of identity). OTOH, a convert to Judaism is also eligible to emigrate to Israel, regardless of their ethnicity (ie religious definition of identity).


2/ You argument that there is no ethnic difference between a German Jew and a non-Jewish German, is co-incidentally similar (although you espouse this for different reasons) to the argument heard by many people who are anti-Israel: that Ashkennazi Jews are European in origin and therefore cannot claim Israel as ther homeland. My understanding is that genetic studies have proven fairly conclusively that ethnic Jews (including Ashkenazi) are of Middle Eastern origin.
 
OTOH, you are in danger of falling into two common traps:

1/Assuming that 'Jewishness' is a solely religious identity. This is wrong; Jewish identity is quite complex in terms of definition, but it can be viewed as a religious, ethnic and cultural identity. For instance, under Israel's Law of Return, a person who is a Christian, but who has at least one ethnically Jewish grandparent is eligible to immigrate to Israel (ie ethnic definition of identity). OTOH, a convert to Judaism is also eligible to emigrate to Israel, regardless of their ethnicity (ie religious definition of identity).

2/ You argument that there is no ethnic difference between a German Jew and a non-Jewish German, is co-incidentally similar (although you espouse this for different reasons) to the argument heard by many people who are anti-Israel: that Ashkennazi Jews are European in origin and therefore cannot claim Israel as ther homeland. My understanding is that genetic studies have proven fairly conclusively that ethnic Jews (including Ashkenazi) are of Middle Eastern origin.

Thank you very much for picking up the discussion. I found your comment very interesting, seeing that (West-) Germany as well as Israel are in a similar position concerning immigration, that they have to define boundaries where someone is German or Jewish enough to apply for citizenship.

I think we are on a common track pointing out that defining Jewishness, either in Israel or in the Diaspora, is a point where one cannot make simplifying assumptions, but that each single family or person may have a different story, especially when it comes to modern times. Thus, I would say, using your words: "but it can be viewed as a religious [and/or] ethnic and[/or] cultural identity."

But I would wish to keep up my points that if you asked early 20th century German Jews for their ethnicity, the answer would in most cases have been "German".
 
Top