No Jewish Homeland

Random bit of curiousity hit me.

What if no Jewish homeland had been established?

No Israel. No Soviet Republic. No British East Africa settlement. No Alaskan settlement.

The world essentially goes "We're terribly sorry that the Holocaust happened to you but . . . ."

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What does the world's (but mostly the European) Jewish population do? Where do they go?

Do they try to force Israel into existence regardless of whether or not the world is willing to support it?

If they force it, does the world prop it up anyways when the Arabs get pissed off at the Israelis?

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So uh, yeah. What happens when the world feels sorry for the Jewish people but not so much as to force a country into existence.
 

Typo

Banned
The European Jews probably end up in the US, while the Middle Eastern Jews stay in their countries
 
Consider that without a central Jewish homeland, many of the world's Jewish populace will have nowhere to escape. (e.g. Ethiopia, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia,et al.). Many will die under the many pogroms initiated in those countries.

Second, the Middle East would continue to be a place of constant warfare, especially with the nationalist and sectarian rivalries of Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Palestine et al....
 
Consider that without a central Jewish homeland, many of the world's Jewish populace will have nowhere to escape. (e.g. Ethiopia, Soviet Union, Yugoslavia,et al.). Many will die under the many pogroms initiated in those countries.

Second, the Middle East would continue to be a place of constant warfare, especially with the nationalist and sectarian rivalries of Syria, Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Palestine et al....

That, is assuming cultures can't exist together. Canada is a living contradiction, and short of physical barriers I don't see why jewish people simplly can't leave the places they are hated in for better places. and please, explain to me why the jewish people can go to Isreal but not America or Canada?
 
There will more than likely form a de facto territory, possibly in the US that has the majority of the jewish population.

However the separatist violence in the Middle East between the jews and arabs will increase the already heightened chances of either ☢ or ☣.
 
That, is assuming cultures can't exist together. Canada is a living contradiction, and short of physical barriers I don't see why jewish people simplly can't leave the places they are hated in for better places. and please, explain to me why the jewish people can go to Isreal but not America or Canada?

For the same reason that the many people throughout the 20th century found themselves in mass-graves rather than safely migrated. As in the cases of Malaysia, Uganda, Ethiopia, Yugoslavia, et al., many dictators find it convenient to keep the "hated Jews" alive for "people's trials". In the midst of the Cold War, they also find that it is far cheaper to put a bullet in the back of the head of a defector rather than risk them going to the dreaded nations of America, France, Great Britain, or even Canada....

Second, 70% of the people identify themselves as the native of their homeland along with their religious identity (e.g. I am an American Roman Catholic). This means that even if the country takes a policy actively targetting them, they most often believe "I am too important to the state to be executed..." With the presence of Israel, there is at least an element of "group religious identity" which will attract people, as opposed to nations they only read about in local propaganda pieces...
 
For the same reason that the many people throughout the 20th century found themselves in mass-graves rather than safely migrated. As in the cases of Malaysia, Uganda, Ethiopia, Yugoslavia, et al., many dictators find it convenient to keep the "hated Jews" alive for "people's trials". In the midst of the Cold War, they also find that it is far cheaper to put a bullet in the back of the head of a defector rather than risk them going to the dreaded nations of America, France, Great Britain, or even Canada....

Second, 70% of the people identify themselves as the native of their homeland along with their religious identity (e.g. I am an American Roman Catholic). This means that even if the country takes a policy actively targetting them, they most often believe "I am too important to the state to be executed..." With the presence of Israel, there is at least an element of "group religious identity" which will attract people, as opposed to nations they only read about in local propaganda pieces...

So your arguing it's simplly a manner of labeling and credibility. I guess jewish people living prosperous and free in America and Canada isn't good enough proof eh? And why would those "local propaganda pieces" make an exception for Isreal?

By your argument as long as the local propaganda pieces are in control jews shouldn't move at all. And you assume that jewish people place an absolute emphasis on the promise of a religion-based state identity over stuff like religious freedom which is the exact same end result. There is no reason why Canada and American cannot be percieved to be more attractive for the jewish people than Isreal.

And by your arguement there should be a nation-state for every religion/culture with members in oppressive states eh?
 
So your arguing it's simplly a manner of labeling and credibility. I guess jewish people living prosperous and free in America and Canada isn't good enough proof eh? And why would those "local propaganda pieces" make an exception for Isreal?

By your argument as long as the local propaganda pieces are in control jews shouldn't move at all. And you assume that jewish people place an absolute emphasis on the promise of a religion-based state identity over stuff like religious freedom which is the exact same end result. There is no reason why Canada and American cannot be percieved to be more attractive for the jewish people than Isreal.

And by your arguement there should be a nation-state for every religion/culture with members in oppressive states eh?
Actually, Speaking as a Jew, he's Quite Right ...

To The International Jewish Consciousness, Israel is DIFFERENT!

The United States is an Amazing Country, One which Holds out its Beacon of Freedom to All, And that's WHY I Make it My Home ...

But, The Promise of Israel is for Jews Alone to be Free, And for Some, That Controversial Fact Makes ALL The Difference!

:eek:
 
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Valdemar II

Banned
Germany, a lot of Jews already ended up in Germany in OTL after the war,but most left to Israel in the following years. Here a lot of these people have to stay there. The question are where the German Jewry before the war will flee too. Likely other European countries and USA. But all in all the death count will likely be bigger, because the German Jewish refugees in other European countries was the first to be transported east after the German conquests.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Well, if there is no Jewish homeland in the middle east, Jews and Muslims will tend to get along in the way they always had before then.

That, is assuming cultures can't exist together. Canada is a living contradiction, and short of physical barriers I don't see why jewish people simplly can't leave the places they are hated in for better places. and please, explain to me why the jewish people can go to Isreal but not America or Canada?
Because the Israeli Government tends to organize things like Operation Moses and Operation Magic Carpet to get Jews out of those situations. Whereas most other nations just sort of ignore such things.

But, The Promise of Israel is for Jews Alone to be Free, And for Some, That Controversial Fact Makes ALL The Difference!

:eek:

It's more along the lines of "Where ever you roam, where ever you live, we are here and we shall let you in and protect you should the need arise."
Which, when you're a member of an Ethnic-religious group with one hell of a well-founded Persecution complex, is pretty nice.
 

Hendryk

Banned
There will more than likely form a de facto territory, possibly in the US that has the majority of the jewish population.
That's an unsubstantiated assumption. The Jews didn't try to form "a de facto territory" for the better part of two millennia, why would they try if Zionism doesn't manage to obtain them a state in Palestine?

However the separatist violence in the Middle East between the jews and arabs will increase the already heightened chances of either ☢ or ☣.
What separatist violence?

The Promise of Israel is for Jews Alone to be Free, And for Some, That Controversial Fact Makes ALL The Difference!
If you can't post without capitalizing every single word in defiance of basic grammar, don't post at all.
 
Are we assuming that the Cisjordan ends up united with Transjordan, or will there be separate states called Jordan and Palestine come 1950?
 
Without Israel, Jordan will likely control that area.

The main conflict in the Middle East at first will be between the pro-America monarchs vs. the pro-Soviet Arab Nationalists. I think a war between Jordan and Egypt/Syria similar to the OTL Yom Kippur War will happen in an attempt to unite the Arab world, which the US will absolutely oppose.

I still think Jews will have a hard time in the Middle East, just like Christians do in the Middle East. Without Israel they would just move to Europe and the US.
 
Without Israel, Jordan will likely control that area.

The main conflict in the Middle East at first will be between the pro-America monarchs vs. the pro-Soviet Arab Nationalists. I think a war between Jordan and Egypt/Syria similar to the OTL Yom Kippur War will happen in an attempt to unite the Arab world, which the US will absolutely oppose.

I still think Jews will have a hard time in the Middle East, just like Christians do in the Middle East. Without Israel they would just move to Europe and the US.

Some of those Jewish populations though may have a harder time fleeing oppression in this timeline than in our own though.
 
If you can't post without capitalizing every single word in defiance of basic grammar, don't post at all.

Oh leave him alone. What he said, *was* interesting you know.

Anyway.

As it was brought up earlier, Israel for better or for worse, has provided a place for Jews in bad situations to escape to, with the help of the Israeli government. No one else really seems to care about Jews otherwise. Of course now we have Israel.
 
I assume the POD is not Balfour Declaration.

Whe will still have the
isr- ‬1882-1903
‎ The First Aliyah, major wave (estimated at 25,000-35,000) of Jewish immigration to Ottoman-occupied Palestine.
isr- ‬1904- ‬1914
‎ The Second Aliyah occurs. Approximately 40,000 Jews immigrated into Ottoman-occupied Palestine, mostly from Russia. The prime cause for the aliyah was mounting anti-Semitism in Russia and pogroms in the Pale of Settlement.
isr- ‬1919-1923
‎ ‏The ‬Third ‬Aliyah ‬was ‬triggered ‬by ‬the ‬October ‬Revolution ‬in ‬Russia, ‬the ‬ensuing ‬pogroms ‬there ‬and ‬in ‬Poland ‬and ‬Hungary, ‬the ‬British ‬conquest ‬of ‬Palestine ‬and ‬the ‬Balfour ‬Declaration. ‬Approximately ‬40,000 ‬Jews ‬arrived ‬in ‬Palestine ‬during ‬this ‬time.

And whe probably still have
April ‬4 –‬ 1920 ‬Palestine ‬riots: ‬Violence ‬erupts ‬between ‬Arab ‬and ‬Jewish ‬residents ‬in ‬Jerusalem; ‬9 ‬killed, ‬216 ‬injured.
May ‬1–‬May ‬7 – ‬The ‬riots ‬at ‬Jaff (‬Mandatory ‬Palestine)‬ result ‬in ‬47 ‬Jewish ‬and ‬48 ‬Arab ‬deaths.
However ITTL with out Balfour, the British impose a absolute ban on Jewish Immigration -So NO
isr- ‬1924-1928
‎ The Fourth Aliyah was a direct result of the economic crisis and anti-Jewish policies in Poland, along with the introduction of stiff immigration quotas by the United States. The Fourth Aliyah brought 82,000 Jews to British-occupied Palestine,
This also means the Development Money and Talent that allowed Palestine to have a per capita GNP up to 5 time the surrounding territories also dries up.
During the 20's & 30's a small trickle of Smuggled Jews continue to move to Palestine but only a tiny fraction of OTL numbers.
But still the distrust between the Jews and British occurs ITTL the same as it did OTL. Whe get the Hageh in the 20's and the Irgun & the Stein Gang in the '30's.

In 1948 A British commission finds that Palestine is not ready for self Rule. However the forces of Decolonization Forces Britain to pull out anyway.
In 1949 Palestine votes to rejoin Syria, except for the Tel Aviv Enclave, which declares it'sself the Nation of Isreal.
Syrian troops move in and crush the enclave, leading to the formation of the Ireali Liberation Army, and the ensuring 60 years of Jewish Terrorism.
 
Starting in the 1980s, the sectarian rivalries between the Shiite and Sunni Muslim sects will become more apparent, despite the absence of a Jewish populace. Just think of the Iran-Iraq War. Also, besides pro-American monarchs, there is conflict between the secularist Baath Party style dictators (e.g. Iraq), and the rise of fundamentalist clerics (e.g. Yemen, Egypt, Iran, et al.),....
 
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