WI: The Texas Revolution Fails

Inspired by the "Republic of Sonora" thread, which involves the US getting more land from Mexico...what if Santa Ana managed to crush Texas in 1846? From what I've read, Santa Ana had a bigger army and Texas happened to be lucky...

Does Santa Ana try expelling the Anglophone population of Texas? Does the US make any more moves on Mexican territory? If not, what happens to California and the rest of what is now Mexico's big empty north?
 
Manifest Destiny still has a strong urge upon America's Minds, soe Moexico will not possess Texas for long.

In the mean while, Anglophones will be 'reeducated' in Spanish forcibly, and Texas's Slaves will be freed, also being reeducated.
 
Mexico won't look quite as weak, and the US won't be as eager to stomp it. There will still be clashes, and the US will probably grow at Mexico's expense, but possibly not as much.
 
From what I've read, Santa Ana had a bigger army and Texas happened to be lucky...

Just to clarify this (not to sidetrack too much from your hypothesis), the Mexican army was largely poorly equipped and full of untrained conscripts. There weren't enough supplies. The Mexican army was the aggressor (meaning they're the ones required to use the extra resources to march and attack fortified positions).

Just something to keep in mind from this discussion: the Texan victory was far from a fluke. The war could've easily gone either way, and it'd take a lot of luck for the Mexicans to have a quick, easy victory. A long, tough war means a bit more of a chance of US intervention of some sort.
 
Just to clarify this (not to sidetrack too much from your hypothesis), the Mexican army was largely poorly equipped and full of untrained conscripts. There weren't enough supplies. The Mexican army was the aggressor (meaning they're the ones required to use the extra resources to march and attack fortified positions).

Just something to keep in mind from this discussion: the Texan victory was far from a fluke. The war could've easily gone either way, and it'd take a lot of luck for the Mexicans to have a quick, easy victory. A long, tough war means a bit more of a chance of US intervention of some sort.

So--if actually OTL Mexico was not as strong in this war as it looks by just counting heads, and yet we somehow have a Mexican victory--that suggests to me that the POD is that ITTL Mexico is stronger. Santa Anna or whoever runs the place is more competent (from what I've read, outdoing OTL Santa Anna is a pretty low bar to clear!:p) Mexico somehow or other has its act more together--the Mexican force would be perhaps a bit less numerous but a lot more seasoned or better trained and organized.

In that case--even if the USA does gear up for a second round, it isn't as easy as OTL. It isn't as easy in 1849 either.

OTOH it isn't clear why the Anglos would have been invited in to settle in Texas in the first place in such a more together Mexico; presumably they'd find more Mexicans to hold the northern borders instead.

I haven't noticed a lot of timelines here that consider the possibility of Mexico holding its own against the USA. There is casual mention of such a situation in a Jack Chalker novel I liked back in high school, And the Devil Will Drag You Under, where there is a parallel Earth where there is magic used much as we use technology and the OTL US Southwest is still Mexican soil. But there are a lot of Anglos living there, and the road signs are bilingual, Spanish and English.

Could a sufficiently competent Mexican government (governmental tradition really, we are talking spanning generations here) exist in the early 19th century and persist through the 20th and beyond, that can accept wave after wave of Anglo immigrants and accept whole settlements of them that speak English still after some generations, and yet are sufficiently loyal to Mexico that they are politically integrated into their adopted country?

I'd like to think so, but I still don't understand exactly why Latin America (at least the northern parts of it) is so infamously short of such societies. Maybe Costa Rica would qualify as such.
 
Yes, Shevek. The POD for this is very important. The Mexican-American War (or equivalent ITTL) could've definitely resulted in a Mexican victory depending on the POD. I don't remember enough about the war to definitively say much, but IIRC, the American win was more due to Mexican incompetence than anything else. It's not like you'd see the Mexican army at the gates of Washington in 1848, but it's possible to see the US get repulsed.

If we take your POD of a stronger, more prepared Mexico with better leadership, rather than my POD of a war that just happens to go better for the Mexicans, it's far less likely the Mexican-American war would go well for the US.
 
Just to clarify this (not to sidetrack too much from your hypothesis), the Mexican army was largely poorly equipped and full of untrained conscripts. There weren't enough supplies. The Mexican army was the aggressor (meaning they're the ones required to use the extra resources to march and attack fortified positions).

Just something to keep in mind from this discussion: the Texan victory was far from a fluke. The war could've easily gone either way, and it'd take a lot of luck for the Mexicans to have a quick, easy victory. A long, tough war means a bit more of a chance of US intervention of some sort.

While a big chunk of the army was indeed untrained conscripts, Santa Anna did have some solid units; the lancers, the Aldama, San Luis Potosi, Toluca, and Matamoros battalions, the Zapadores, and the Granaderos were all regulars with experience; these were the ones who actually stormed the Alamo, while the untrained conscripts stayed far away. SA also had some fairly good commanders in his force (Filisola, Urrea) whose advice he rarely took. Oddly enough, one of the best PODs for having Mexico win the war is to have Santa Anna killed at some point so that one of these people takes over. At the end of the war, when SA was captured after San Jacinto, the Mexicans had more and better trained troops in TX than Houston did; if SA hadn't been captured or had been killed (not signing the treaty), the Mexican forces in the field could have stomped Houston's army.
As for what happens after... depends on what the Mexicans do. If SA lives and carries out widespread massacre, there's a good chance that the USA will intervene (they were already mad about the loss of Crockett at the Alamo). If SA doesn't live and one of the other commanders is merciful, then the USA likely won't intervene... although a Mexican/American war over the western territory is still very likely to happen...
 
While a big chunk of the army was indeed untrained conscripts, Santa Anna did have some solid units; the lancers, the Aldama, San Luis Potosi, Toluca, and Matamoros battalions, the Zapadores, and the Granaderos were all regulars with experience; these were the ones who actually stormed the Alamo, while the untrained conscripts stayed far away. SA also had some fairly good commanders in his force (Filisola, Urrea) whose advice he rarely took. Oddly enough, one of the best PODs for having Mexico win the war is to have Santa Anna killed at some point so that one of these people takes over.

Sure. I was just trying to explain that the numbers don't tell the whole story; it wasn't by pure luck that Texas won the war. It could've pretty easily gone either way.

The POD here can potentially be very important, and I think there should be a bit more thought on it than "Santa Ana had a bigger army." The exact changes involved (Santa Ana's death, Mexico has an overall better army, a few lucky battles, etc) is going to have an impact on what happens afterward. As you say, depending on how the (failed) Texas Revolution goes, there's going to be a big difference on how American intervention and the future Mexican-American War (if it happens) will turn out.
 
In that case--even if the USA does gear up for a second round, it isn't as easy as OTL. It isn't as easy in 1849 either.

Then factor in the possibility that round 2 might have to wait until after the U.S. civil war. By then, an easy victory / political take over might be impossible. If so, the U.S. my have to content itself with California and the Southwest.

Unless.... The U.S. teams with France. Mexico becomes an autonomous part of the French empire and "agrees" to sell Texas to the United States;).
 
Still I think it is pretty obvious that OTL Mexico had pretty deep, systemic problems stemming from having been an exploited and underdeveloped Spanish colony, with a huge culture gap between the only somewhat Hispanicized native peoples and a more or less Castillian elite that could neither make common cause with the mestizo majority nor settle its own internal bickering. Bottom line was that Mexico was simply not a modern nation.

Perhaps there is no need to wank Mexico into complete equivalence on a per capita basis with el Norte (since Mexico I believe had quite a high total population even then, this would mean Mexico dwarfs the USA in national product and military capability). Nor even necessarily to make Mexico's overall industrial product such that the two federal republics were comparable in gross product. But somewhere there is probably a minimum level of productivity and national coherence such that Mexico could field a border defense force of sufficient competence and well enough equipped and of reasonable loyalty to its government such that the USA would think twice and thrice before striking, at least not without a very good causus belli, one better than "they're brown and we want their land!" as OTL:p!

Now the question is--given Mexico's systemic legacy of underdevelopment and social antagonism between the Castillian overlords and the vast majority of the population, could there have been any social evolution there that would give the Mexican government deep enough force to hold Texas from secession in the 1820s and hold off any land-grabbing in the 1840s?

It seems that actually, despite the infamous idiocy of Santa Anna (and why and how did such a clown take power in Mexico City--and did so again at least once and maybe more often than that after his defeat by the Texans?) the Mexicans OTL had a shot at holding as things were, and would have needed not much more to secure the place once and for all.

Still, I do think that even if the Texan adventure had ended ingloriously for the Anglos there, Americans would not stop trying to pry something off and eventually there would have been a showdown. How much more solid and developed would the Mexican regime have to be to have enough to draw on to hold all of the territory that OTL the USA took?

Actually aside from Texas, by 1849 they had already lost control of the territories known as Deseret, to Brigham Young's Mormon exodus. And OTL California was already teetering on the edge of secession before Kit Carson ever showed up.

I think that a more solidly developing Mexico could at least have held on to California better, by having better relations with the Mexicans who did settle there OTL and by sending more to join them in holding it.

Deseret OTOH had taken control of land that the Mexicans, and Spanish before them, claimed on European conference tables and had some small outpost garrisons to try to guard at best, but basically had done nothing with, for good or ill. I think that they would perforce have to negotiate some deal with Salt Lake City, either recognition of independence (which at least might give Mexico a useful distraction for Washington to have to consider) or winning over their allegiance to the Mexican Republic as a highly autonomous province. Since there was little love lost between the Mormons and the Anglo-Americans who had driven them from their homes into the western wilderness, this might have been very viable.

Actually I think that Deseret overlapped the legally agreed-upon borders between the Louisiana Purchase and the last days of the Spanish empire in New Spain, so if Brigham Young did agree to come under the Mexican flag, this would amount to taking at least a piece of US territory with him.

Again I just don't know enough detail of early Mexican history to suggest any PODs that might plausibly result in such a Mexico. But if Mexico were stronger in the ways I indicate--better social integration between native mestizos and Castillian-oriented dons, more of an industrial core, a central culture of government that wasn't a comic-opera revolving door of coups but had some stability, better opportunity for middle classes deriving from both ethnic strands to grow and rely on better business conditions--then I think California would have been hard to take without a very bitter fight, and perhaps not even then. A strong enough Mexican government could after all call on the British to become allies and offer them port facilities in San Francisco and San Diego, perhaps without fear that the British would try to carve the hinterland off as protectorates.

With the RN based in California and in Puget Sound as well how much provocation could any US President risk, with Oregon caught in the vise like that? He'd risk losing the USA's only outlet onto the Pacific!
 
Top