Rewrite the Star Wars Expanded Universe

[Thande]

Originally Posted by crackersncheese

I think she's drawing precedent from when Daala gasses all the warlords except for herself and Pellaeon.

EDIT: What's even more hilarious is the Anvilicious way in which the new series points out that Daala did not in fact get her position by giving Tarkin blowjobs. Or so she says. There's this scene where Daala's office gets a female intern, and she gives her a pep talk or something about sticking it to men. I can't remember perfectly because I was laughing by that point.

OK so Daala pulled a John Simm Master, but she was still totally incompetent in commanding ships in combat, which is the point.

One interesting thing about Traviss' writing is that she throws out British connections which may not be obvious to foreigners. For example, when Daala compares herself to this legend of 'Darakaer', it's actually the legend of Francis Drake IN SPACE with some extra vowels shoved in. And Jacen keeps quoting Tony Blair - "tough on chaos, tough on the causes of chaos" (originally 'crime').

[TyranicusMaximus]

I'm too lazy to find it, but I read a thread on SD.net about how bad Karen Traviss's writing is.

So yeah, I wouldn't let her anywhere near it.

[lord caedus]

I hated how in Revelation when Daala returns, everyone treats it like the second (third?) coming of Thrawn. What the GA (Caedus/Jacen's faction, that is) should've done is celebrate: "Huzzah, Daala's here to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory!" And then, in a not-stupid LOTF, Daala would somehow have lost half of her ships trying to attack Jacen/Caedus but instead destroying some of the Fondorian/Imperial/Niathal faction's ships along with hers.

And another thing that reaally bothered me about Traviss' writing is the way that she uses British terminologies and references. I don't mind if it's framed as a way a certain group of characters (so I guess, Mandos) talk/think, but it starts to get aggravating once characters like Jacen/Caedus, Luke or Mara start using Britishisms even though they never have before. It just really throws the story off and comes across as weird, since all Star Wars media uses American English terminology and phrases.

And I knew about the Daraeker=Francis Drake & Caedus=Tony Blair thing already, due to Wookieepedia/TheForce.Net. The Caedus=Blair thing is really pathetic, actually. It's one thing to model characters off of politicians (i.e.-Palpatine off of Napoleon, Hitler, Caesar & other dictators) but another thing to do it without any apparent reason other than hatred of the political figure in question.

[LordInsane]

To be fair to Traviss, I actually sort of like that phrase, and can see why she snagged and paraphrased it if it fits the circumstances. If that was the limit of the modelling, I'd not find any problem with it.

[Rogue Shadows]

Originally Posted by Thande

Yeah, Traviss' masturbating over Mandalorians is legendary, it's almost like a parody of Boba Fett's fanboy image.

Much as the Fett parts of that series kinda' dragged it down, she has done a lot of good work to develop the culture, history, and especially the language of the Mandalorians.

I'm not here to call you wrong. I'm just pointing out that Mandalorians would be *very* different without her. I do not like the Clone Wars TV series' take on them.

Fett's arc in Legacy probably would have been better as its own distinct book.

And I'll admit to having not ready any of Traviss' other Star Wars novels.

[lord caedus]

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

Much as the Fett parts of that series kinda' dragged it down, she has done a lot of good work to develop the culture, history, and especially the language of the Mandalorians.

I'm not here to call you wrong. I'm just pointing out that Mandalorians would be *very* different without her. I do not like the Clone Wars TV series' take on them.

Fett's arc in Legacy probably would have been better as its own distinct book.

And I'll admit to having not ready any of Traviss' other Star Wars novels.

I agree with you that, as much as Traviss whacks off to the thought of Mandos killing any and all Jedi, she has done good work in fleshing out Mandalorian culture, history and language.

The only gripes I have are that:

• Mando'a has numerous problems. First off, its orthography is totally out of whack (use of both 'c' and 'k' for the 'k' sound) with weird digraphs ('yc' =sh and 'cye'= 'shay'), all different kinds of spelling for vowels sounds (which you'd think a military society like the Mandos have would've streamlined this years ago), and throws out apostrophes like nobody's business. Then there's the fact that the Mandos use a present-tense default verb system with only past and present tenses, which wouldn't be a problem except they're a goddamn space-warrior society.
• Traviss has re-written parts of Mando history to "make sense of things" but in the process has added nothing and thrown out previously unproblematic parts of canon to insert her own without it improving the story at all.

That being said, her characterization of them is much better than the Clone Wars TV series' version of the Mandalorians.

[BlackWave]

You kidding me? She turned them into a bunch of Mary Sue Klingon/Elite knockoffs, from a bunch of warlike barbarians who always got their asses kicked to somehow being a third power alongside the Jedi and Sith! I actually liked the retcon in the CW series, as at least there they're shown as an actual society that would function instead of yet another 2D warrior race.

[LordVetinari]

I think that the above all have their good points. But I have one problem. Not going back far enough. There was one spot that really makes a mockery of the Star Wars universe, and it happened in 1978. Unfortunately we can't go back in time and destroy the idea for ST:HS (Its is bad enough, I won't spell out its name. That is all.

[anon_user]

Originally Posted by BlackWave

You kidding me? She turned them into a bunch of Mary Sue Klingon/Elite knockoffs, from a bunch of warlike barbarians who always got their asses kicked to somehow being a third power alongside the Jedi and Sith! I actually liked the retcon in the CW series, as at least their they're shown as an actual society that would function instead of yet another 2D warrior race.

Agreed (about the CW retcon being cool). The Clone Wars' version of Mandalore was beautiful - all art deco and stained glass, the spoils of generations of mercenary duties. I liked it a lot.

To all: in your version of the EU, does Boba Fett live, or does he die in the Sarlacc?

[anon_user]

Originally Posted by LordVetinari

I think that the above all have their good points. But I have one problem. Not going back far enough. There was one spot that really makes a mockery of the Star Wars universe, and it happened in 1978. Unfortunately we can't go back in time and destroy the idea for ST:HS (Its is bad enough, I won't spell out its name. That is all.

We've destroyed the memory of it, for the most part. Besides, it serves as a lesson - always retain control over the property.

[Roslin's Wig]

Originally Posted by anon_user

Agreed (about the CW retcon being cool). The Clone Wars' version of Mandalore was beautiful - all art deco and stained glass, the spoils of generations of mercenary duties. I liked it a lot.

To all: in your version of the EU, does Boba Fett live, or does he die in the Sarlacc?

Dies in the Sarlacc. Please. (Wasn't it Traviss who resurrected him in the first place?)
I found Traviss' psychosexual obsession with clone troopers and mandalorians very annoying to read.

I think most EU authors think about Star Wars in the completely wrong way. It was never meant to be pure science-fiction, or a war story, or a political thriller (EU can be about those things, but the actual movies weren't). The movies are like a heroic legend or epic, but set in space. A good idea for how to handle EU would be to just take Beowulf or some other legend, and set it in the SW galaxy. And there you have it.
This is why Stover is the only EU author I like, because he gives his books that "mythical" feeling.

[anon_user]

Nah, Fett got resurrected back in, I think, Dark Empire.

One other aspect - Star Wars is aimed, ultimately, at children. Not that it can't also appeal to adults, obviously, but that it shouldn't really be trying to be 'gritty' and 'adult.'

Stover definitely gets the mythic thing right.
I do think that there's a place for other tones beyond heroic myth - think of the X-Wing novels, for instance. But if you're doing something big, something on a large scale, go epic and go for myth.

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by crackersncheese

EDIT: What's even more hilarious is the Anvilicious way in which the new series points out that Daala did not in fact get her position by giving Tarkin blowjobs. Or so she says. There's this scene where Daala's office gets a female intern, and she gives her a pep talk or something about sticking it to men. I can't remember perfectly because I was laughing by that point.

The impression I had of Daala was that she was very intelligent and skilled, but got passed over repeatedly for being a woman.

Then she became Tarkin's mistress and apprentice and things got better.

People can claim she advanced like she did because of her involvement with Tarkin, but if the Empire hadn't been so sexist, she wouldn't have needed to.

[MerryPrankster]

I would have kept Fett alive, just because he was built up to be all bad@$$ and got taken out relatively quickly in ROTJ.

Besides, there's a fun part where Fett returns to Tatooine and goes near the Sarlacc and hears this booming voice in his mind:

"YOU!!"

[Strategos' Risk]

Make Legacy more like KOTOR in the sense that it happens in a time further removed from the original trilogy. Only 137 years or so after kinda cramps up the timeline. It's not as if there are any characters from the OT in Legacy besides R2-D2, who's effectively immortal anyways.

[LordInsane]

Originally Posted by anon_user

To all: in your version of the EU, does Boba Fett live, or does he die in the Sarlacc?

... darn, that reminds me, I forgot Boba Fett in MFTY:H...

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

The impression I had of Daala was that she was very intelligent and skilled, but got passed over repeatedly for being a woman.

Then she became Tarkin's mistress and apprentice and things got better.

People can claim she advanced like she did because of her involvement with Tarkin, but if the Empire hadn't been so sexist, she wouldn't have needed to.

From what I gather, that is how she was described in the books where she was introduced. The reason why people don't believe the 'skilled' bits and suspect that being Tarkin's mistress was the more important bit is that what she actually does shows a remarkable lack of tactical and strategical competence for someone of that description.

[anon_user]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

From what I gather, that is how she was described in the books where she was introduced. The reason why people don't believe the 'skilled' bits and suspect that being Tarkin's mistress was the more important bit is that what she actually does shows a remarkable lack of tactical and strategical competence for someone of that description.

Well, she was Tarkin's protege. Tarkin was many things, but he wasn't exactly a brilliant tactician, as Yavin 4 would show.
***
I do think that Artoo and Threepio should be present very, very far into the future. They're basically the narrators of Star Wars, after all...
I think it also might be interesting having them be present in the distant past as well, but that might be a stretch.

[LordInsane]

Originally Posted by anon_user

Well, she was Tarkin's protege. Tarkin was many things, but he wasn't exactly a brilliant tactician, as Yavin 4 would show.

True, although Tarkin might be given the excuse that he hadn't had many tactical duties for the last nineteen years or so.

[TheSevenLeggedFallyDowner]

Well, to start with, I'd make one hard and fast rule: When someone dies, they STAY DEAD! Boba Fett dies in the Sarlaac. Not into the Sarlacc, escapes from/kills the Sarlacc, back into the Sarlacc, barfed up by the Sarlacc, back into the Sarlacc again, and then finally re-escaping and still being alive at age 70. Seriously, he got eaten by the Sarlacc 3 times. In my EU, he dies the first time. Also, the Emperor stays dead.

I don't think they should have had the Galactic Civil War drag on as long as it did. When I saw the movies, I kind of saw Endor as being like the beginning of the end. It sort of ruins that when the war drags on for another 15 years. In my EU, the Empire fragments into warlordism and collapses upon itself just like in the canon timeline, but the Rebellion is strong enough to take advantage. The Empire is gone by 6 ABY (maybe 7 or 8 at latest). No Imperial Remnant. Now of course, we need to keep Thrawn, just because he's awesome. So maybe after the Rebellion has destroyed most of the warlords, he unites the rest and goes on his conquering spree like in the canon. He is defeated in a similar manner and the war ends there. No Daala, no more warlords. The Empire is finished. Go find a new enemy.

No Yuuzhan Vong for the reasons already given by others. It was a ridiculous story arc, and the revisionism makes Palpatine's actions look almost justified. Also, no Dark Nest. It was Troy Denning at his worst.

I'd add longer interludes of peace. Does the Rebellion/New Republic/Galactic Alliance really have to face a galaxy shattering existential crisis every few years? I say that after the Thrawn campaign in 6-7 ABY, nothing of huge galactic importance happens until at least 15 ABY. During these peace interludes, there may be some minor skirmishes when one planet tries to split from the New Republic or something, but no full-scale wars. Any books during these periods would focus on character development, i.e. Han and Leia getting married, Luke restarting the Jedi Order, etc.

I like the Jedi Academy trilogy. It can stay, but I would want to incorporate the elements from I, Jedi initially rather than having that awkward retcon.

I like the idea of having one of the Solo kids turning to the dark side, although I wish they could have fleshed it out and built up to it more. Instead it felt sort of forced. One day Jacen just decided to turn to the dark side because . . . well, because we need a new villain.

I want the New Jedi Order to keep the whole celibacy thing from the Old Jedi Order. It gives them more of a monk-ish feel, which I like. I also want to have like a semi-Jedi class of people who are force-sensitive but not willing to make a full commitment to devote their lives to the Order. They would be trained by the Jedi to resist the temptations of the dark side so that they wouldn't be a future threat, but otherwise could live normal lives. This would include people like Leia, who never struck me as being the Jedi type. Perhaps one of the Solo kids also chooses this path and doesn't become a Jedi. Also, stop throwing children into combat. I don't care if they are Jedi. 13 year olds should not be allowed on a battlefield.

Keep Chewie alive longer. He was cool, and at the very least deserved a better death than the one they gave him. I always pictured him and Han going out together, just the two of them desperately charging into the teeth of an enemy army and managing to do obscene amounts of damage before they finally bite it.

As for authors, no Karen Traviss or Troy Denning. Unlike most people, I like Kevin Anderson. Timothy Zahn is of course a god among men and would be contracted to write as many books as possible. Michael Stackpole and Aaron Allston are also good. I could see a Anderson-Stackpole-Allston collaboration writing the main thrust of the books, like Allston-Denning-Traviss did for Legacy and Allson-Denning-Golden is currently doing with Fate of the Jedi. Zahn would be free to stick in a trilogy wherever he wanted just to spice things up.

[lord caedus]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

From what I gather, that is how she was described in the books where she was introduced. The reason why people don't believe the 'skilled' bits and suspect that being Tarkin's mistress was the more important bit is that what she actually does shows a remarkable lack of tactical and strategical competence for someone of that description.

That and she's shown to be pretty much utterly incompetent when it comes to being a commander. In her initial venture outside of the Maw, she only beats a rag-tag mercenary force and a bunch of refugees that she massacres on Dantooine. Every engagement with any other enemy she loses, usually to the tune of 1 Imperial Star-Destroyer (out of 4 that she was given by Tarkin) per battle.

I've heard fan theories that explain the gap between her build-up as a great strategist and a totally incompetent commander: the best one is that she performed well on ground (i.e.-army) simulations and was an excellent army strategist, but Tarkin made her a space/naval commander (because this is Tarkin, military genius extraordinaire we're talking about). Also, in Death Star, she gets a head injury in an explosion, so that probably explains it much better than the previous theory ever could.