Battle of the Yellow Sea

[Dave Howery]

Turn 6 (Night). Both sides regroup, replenish (again, not much needed), and rest their air crews. The war is about to escalate... the loss of the Chongju has caused Kim to go even more nuts than usual. The whole of the Korean peninsula is now a war zone...
Special Agent Park has caught a flight from Beijing to New Dehli, the dossier on BlairWitch749 spread out on the empty seat nearby...

[Talwar]

Interesting - in a Harpoon game, I'm pretty certain every one of those torpedo hits would've been instant-kills. Do you reckon this system is under-estimating torpedo lethality or is about right?

Where's the update on The Hunt for Blairwith749?

Edit: Belay that last point.

[Dave Howery]

One thing I didn't realize when I set up this whole thing... ASW warfare is tough here... mainly because the Yellow Sea is made up of all shallow water hexes, which makes things harder on both sides (for some reason, US SN subs perform much more poorly in shallow water hexes). The NK subs really have a hard time of it.. they're slow, they're absurdly easy to detect, and they literally have no chance of hurting the LA class subs... even if they roll maximum on the dice, the defense factor of the LA subs is high enough that they can't be hurt by the NK subs (which have a really poor ASW factor). The one exception is the Kilo class, which hasn't gotten into the action yet. OTOH, the US force has rather a hard time smacking down the NK subs too... the LA subs have a pretty good ASW factor, but the shallow seas makes it harder to hit. The SK flotillas and the P3s have to roll pretty lucky to score a hit, and haven't done it yet. If the game reflects reality, then the USN chose badly when it sent the Washington into the Yellow Sea with only Burke class destroyers... that class has a dismal ASW factor. As it stands now (in the game), the best ASW assets are the Cowpens and the Washington herself.. and sending them in charging at the NK sub groups would likely be suicide (as bad as they are at ASW, the NK subs are rather better at torpedo attacks at surface targets)...

[Don Lardo]

Originally Posted by Talwar

Interesting - in a Harpoon game, I'm pretty certain every one of those torpedo hits would've been instant-kills. Do you reckon this system is under-estimating torpedo lethality or is about right?

It's more of a game design artifact than anything else.

Unlike Harpoon which has several separate detection and attack rolls, the Fleet series combines the whole detection-tracking-shooting-hitting process into a single roll.

The "misses" Dave is reporting are not solely weapon misses. Instead, some and, perhaps, most can be "explained" by the SSNs not detecting the Nork SSKs, not detecting them well enough, not maintaining sensor "locks", weapons losing "sensor" locks, and the like rather than actual weapon misses.

[MrP]

Tempting, Dave, teasing, luring - I like it.

Originally Posted by Don Lardo

It's more of a game design artifact than anything else.

Unlike Harpoon which has several separate detection and attack rolls, the Fleet series combines the whole detection-tracking-shooting-hitting process into a single roll.

The "misses" Dave is reporting are not solely weapon misses. Instead, some and, perhaps, most can be "explained" by the SSNs not detecting the Nork SSKs, not detecting them well enough, not maintaining sensor "locks", weapons losing "sensor" locks, and the like rather than actual weapon misses.

I do prefer that sort of thing. It's always easier to explain things when there are multiple factors going into a particular roll, as opposed to, say, 40K where one's model can stand right by a vehicle with an AT weapon and fail its To Hit roll.

[Don Lardo]

Originally Posted by MrP

It's always easier to explain things when there are multiple factors going into a particular roll, as opposed to, say, 40K where one's model can stand right by a vehicle with an AT weapon and fail its To Hit roll.

In the Fleet series case, all the factors involved in a roll are "below the level of resolution" available to the players.

The games' designers took all sorts of factors into account when determining attack factors, defense factors, "terrain" effects and the like and then summed them all up in fairly opaque numbers. This means all sorts of concerns have been lumped together into one roll.

Now, with the Harpoon series, all those factors are right out in the open. You have ratings for all the different sensors and all the different weapons plus how weather and "terrain" effect them all. Because all those factors are dealt with individually, you end up with far more individual rolls and other decisions.

More rolls and more decisions makes for a longer game, so it's a trade off.

[Da Pwnzlord]

This is really interesting. Keep the updates coming!

[MerryPrankster]

Interesting. Keep up the good work.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Don Lardo

In the Fleet series case, all the factors involved in a roll are "below the level of resolution" available to the players.

The games' designers took all sorts of factors into account when determining attack factors, defense factors, "terrain" effects and the like and then summed them all up in fairly opaque numbers. This means all sorts of concerns have been lumped together into one roll.

Now, with the Harpoon series, all those factors are right out in the open. You have ratings for all the different sensors and all the different weapons plus how weather and "terrain" effect them all. Because all those factors are dealt with individually, you end up with far more individual rolls and other decisions.

More rolls and more decisions makes for a longer game, so it's a trade off.

Aye, it's personal preference, of course. I generally prefer the more abstract, in part because I dislike "buckets of dice" and again as I like a nice speedy resolution. Then again, while in Napoleonic land combat I just like to know if my battalions remain combat-effective, in WWI-naval, I do want to know whether Beatty's just got his hat knocked off his head, so to speak.

[Dave Howery]

The war came to a sudden halt as Dave stepped on the edge of the game box and sent counters all over the place (but luckily, not on the game map he's using for this game). Much time was lost sorting out the million or so tiny counters, and putting them back into their trays.
Anyway...

Turn 7 (AM): Political: no affect. The UN pleaded for a ceasefire, but Kim declared to his entire nation that 'the world will learn I don't wear crazy pants!"
Reinforcements: SK flotilla 4 appears on Pusan. In Yokosuka, USN Task Force 2 (CG Shiloh, DDs Curtis Wilbur, John McCain, McCampbell, and Mustin) are activated for duty in the Yellow Sea (they had been held back for fear that the NKs would act up in the Sea of Japan, but the USN is now taking the risk of sending them into the Yellow Sea to support the Washington). In Guam, a force of USN Los Angeles class submarines (Corpus Christi, Houston, Buffalo) is activated to make the long journey to the Yellow Sea.

Action Phase 1: Allied Submarine: the Salt Lake City fires on the one remaining Whiskey submarine, the Unggi, and damages it. The New York City fires on the Hungnam, and sinks the battered submarine. The last thought to go through the NK captain's mind was "Alas, if only I had turned to religion earlier..." The 3 LA subs from Guam begin their long journey to the Yellow Sea.
NK Submarine: The two remaining Romeos in the eastern group and the Unggi throw caution to the wind and charge ahead at full speed towards USN Task Force 1. The Pyongyang fires a devastatingly effective torpedo attack at the already battered SK Flotilla 1 and sink the rest of the ships in it; the flotilla is destroyed. The 4 Romeos and sole Kilo class subs in the western group also move at full speed, and end up in the detection zone of the Washington force; all 5 subs are detected.

Admiral Dave looked at the battle board in shock... out of nowhere, 5 more enemy submarines appeared off his NW flank. The entire NK submarine fleet was gunning for his ship! "Get us the hell out of here!", he ordered.

Action Phase 2: Allied Surface: Task Force 1 moved to the east, away from the western NK sub group, but it is running out of room to move and still stay in the Yellow Sea. Task Force 2 leaves Yokosuka and steams south. The SK flotillas combine forces and go after the Pyongyang, but fail to hit it.
NK Air: The NK air force launches a massive attack on Seoul, gunning for the airbase there. But the Allied interceptors lying in wait struck hard, even though very outnumbered. All the escorting NK fighter planes were forced back into NK air space, and 2 out of the 3 NK I28 attack plane squadrons were damaged and forced to turn back.

Action Phase 3: Allied air: the P3 squadrons attack one of the two remaining Romeos in the eastern group, the Hamhung (love that name ) and damage it. With the sudden escalation in the air war, the USAF releases the squadrons in southern Japan, sending them to relocate on bases in SK; however, they won't be available for use for two days.
NK surface: pass.

[Thande]

Kudos for doing this Dave. Any chance of a photo of the map?

[Dave Howery]

Turn 8 (PM) Action phase 1: NK Submarine: All three groups move at full speed towards the Washington task force, but none get close enough to fire. The Pyongyang attacks SK flotilla 2 and damages it.
Allied Submarine: The NYC fires at the Hamhung (), and the SLC fires at the Unggi, but both miss their targets. The sub force from Guam moves closer to the Yellow Sea.

Action phase 2: Allied surface: Task Force 1 takes a risk and moves NW, which will put it in reach of the eastern group and the Unggi, but that is more survivable than facing the full force of the western sub group. The SK flotillas engage the Pyongyang but again fail to hit it. Task Force 2 moves further south.
NK Air: Another, even larger, attack is made on Seoul, and the allies are forced to commit all Interceptors to stem the tide. A SK F5 squadron is damaged in the fight. The NK I28 squadrons make a bombing run on the airport at Seoul, but fails to do any damage.

Action phase 3: Allied air: The P3 squadrons attack the Hamhung () and miss it.
NK Surface: pass.

[Dave Howery]

Originally Posted by Thande

Kudos for doing this Dave. Any chance of a photo of the map?

I tried that, but I just can't get a decent picture... it's basically a big blue blur with some tiny green and red squares on it...

[Dave Howery]

Turn 9 (Night). No more leisurely resting and regrouping.

Action Phase 1: NK Submarine: The two remaining Romeos of the eastern group and the Unggi move full speed and finally come within shooting distance of the Washington. Their goal in sight, the 3 submarines fire a maximum torpedo attack... and completely miss (rolled a 1, a 1, and a 3!). The Pyongyang attacks the SK flotilla and also misses. A poor showing for the NKs this turn.
Allied Submarine: the NYC attacks the Hamhung () and misses. The SLC attacks the Unggi and also misses. Man, the subs suck this turn.

Action phase 2: Allied Surface: Task Force 1 takes advantage of the 'fire and move' rule in the game.. it attacks the Hamhung (), misses, and then scoots to the north, still staying in the Yellow Sea. The SK flotillas go after the Pyongyang, and miss again. Task Force 2 steams full ahead southwards in the darkness. My, everyone kinda sucks at combat this turn.
NK air: pass (NK air squadrons have severe night penalties)

Action phase 3: Allied air: the P3s attack the Hamhung () and sink it () And the B52 squadron has arrived in Japan, and is available for use the next day.

Regroup, resupply, repair... reinforcements: the damaged SK F5 squad is back at full strength, along with both damaged NK I28 squads.

Special Agent Park is now on a flight to Istanbul; unfortunately, the in-flight movie is "Air Bud"... the suffering one must endure when bringing justice to the wicked...

[anon_user]

That was a stroke of luck for Admiral Dave there, not getting sunk by the Nork subs!

[MacCaulay]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

...the ambassador has been forced to listen to a rambling litany of perceived grievances against the US and SK (plus, a puzzling comment that Kim 'does not wear crazy pants!').

This is the best thread in the history of ever.

[MacCaulay]

Originally Posted by Dave Howery

One thing I didn't realize when I set up this whole thing... ASW warfare is tough here... mainly because the Yellow Sea is made up of all shallow water hexes, which makes things harder on both sides (for some reason, US SN subs perform much more poorly in shallow water hexes).

I remember reading somewhere it had something to do with the sonar on US subs. They're designed for blue water work and tracking Soviets in the Atlantic and Pacific, and places like the Persian Gulf and the Yellow Sea are what they call "Green Water," with a shallower bottom which tend to bounce a lot of the signal back.

I'll have to dig up where I found that...it's on one of my shelves.

[Dave Howery]

Originally Posted by MacCaulay

I remember reading somewhere it had something to do with the sonar on US subs. They're designed for blue water work and tracking Soviets in the Atlantic and Pacific, and places like the Persian Gulf and the Yellow Sea are what they call "Green Water," with a shallower bottom which tend to bounce a lot of the signal back.

I'll have to dig up where I found that...it's on one of my shelves.

The USN SN subs actually still shoot normally in shallow seas, but they have a big negative modifier when defending themselves... which still gives the Romeos and Whiskeys no chance to harm them... literally, they can't roll high enough to hit them. Still, the USN subs have only a 50% chance to inflict damage on the Romeos; as you can tell from the game so far, I've managed to roll pretty low on most attacks.

But the next day's action that I played out tonight got a LOT bloodier; I'll post it sometime tomorrow (have to go to the dentist in the morning and be tortured for a couple of hours. Whee).

[MrP]

Grand stuff, Dave. I trust the Dear Leader has not replaced your dentist tomorrow!

[Dave Howery]

Turn 10 (AM). Political: no affect. Many in the world plead for negotiation, but the combatants aren't having any of it.
Reinforcements: The final SK flotilla (a PCS squadron with no ASW capability) appears in Inchon.

Action phase 1: Allied Surface: Task Force 1 moves to the waters off Cheju Do island. Task Force 2 rounds the southern tip of Kyushu. The SK flotillas attack the Pyongyang and miss. The newly arrived SK PCS flotilla is in an interesting position; it is very close to the NK surface fleet. While the SK flotilla is fairly weak in defense, it has a powerful attack: sea-skimming SSMs with a range of 2. Plus, while sitting in the port, the squadron receives hefty defense bonuses from the port defenses. So, the squadron attacks the NK surface fleet; even with the long range penalties, the SSM attack hits hard, and sinks the NKs lone PCS counter.
NK Submarine: the Pyongyang moves to attack Task Force 1, but rolls so low that the attack completely fails. All the other NK submarines move north towards TF1; in the process, all of them are detected.

Action Phase 2: Allied submarine: The SLC fires on the Kilo and damages it (which lowers the odds of the NKs sinking the Washington by quite a bit). The NYC fires on the Unggi, and sends the last Whiskey to the bottom.
NK Air: The NKs launch another large attack on Seoul. The two interceptor forces essentially neutralize each other (both 'return to base'), and the I28 attack craft inflict a point of damage on the Seoul airport (all planes there are now grounded).

Action phase 3: NK Surface: The NK flotillas are in an unenviable position; they have little chance of hurting the SK PCS squadron (due to the port defenses), but if they stay where they are, the SK ships will continue to hammer it. Plus, USN Task Force 1 is coming temptingly close. So the NK surface fleet moves south.
Allied Air: the P3 squads attack the Pyongyang, and miss.