German Civil War, 1933

A few questions:

First of all, is it really plausible for Hindenburg not to make Hitler Chancellor once you get to January 1933?

And second of all, if Hindenburg refuses Hitler, do the nazis have any chance to win the likely civil war?

If a civil war came about how long would such a conflict last?

Another question would be, do the French occupy the Rhineland during a civil war?
 
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A few questions:

First of all, is it really plausible for Hindenburg not to make Hitler Chancellor once you get to January 1933?

And second of all, if Hindenburg refuses Hitler, do the nazis have any chance to win the likely civil war?

If a civil war came about how long would such a conflict last?

Another question would be, do the French occupy the Rhineland during a civil war?

Something similar to this was discussed earlier, just search German Civil War. Except Franz Von Papen takes over, and tries to purge the Nazis, anarchists, and communists.
 
First of all, is it really plausible for Hindenburg not to make Hitler Chancellor once you get to January 1933?

Sure. It's also possible for him to fire Hitler. But I can tell you that once that man was that close to his goals, he would not leave willingly (or alive for that matter).
 

Markus

Banned
A few questions:

First of all, is it really plausible for Hindenburg not to make Hitler Chancellor once you get to January 1933?

Absolutely! He did not like Hitler personally and the NSDAP had lost 4.5% in the latest election.



And second of all, if Hindenburg refuses Hitler, do the nazis have any chance to win the likely civil war?
What civil war?

In 1933 Germany lacked the critical mass to start a civil war. The moderate left SPD was a democratic party that defended the constitution, the Commies were not but they were simply too weak to overthrow the Republic. So there´s no threat of a civil war started by the Left. The Nazis and the Right together easily overmatch the Left, so again no civil war and the Nazis alone lack the means to defeat the State as they did neither control the police nor the military.


If a civil war came about how long would such a conflict last?
Beer Hall Putsch anybody?
 
If an authoritarian but democratic regime decided to crack on the diverse paramilitary, they will no civil wars...

Leftist paramilitaries will be crushed easily...

Nazi paramilitaries will be disolved peacefully because they will not fight against their "comrades" from the Reichwehr, except the most leftist and revolutionnary of the SA... Some top-level arrestations and condemnations and it will be the end of the Nazi...
 
I agree if Hindenburg order the army to take action almost all of the right wing militias would disperse. There were a number of people who would be willing to take on the job and who would not flinch. Crwn Prince Rupherdt of Bavaria would be a candidature. he hated the Nazis.
 
A few questions:

First of all, is it really plausible for Hindenburg not to make Hitler Chancellor once you get to January 1933?

Absolutely. If you read any accounts about early 1933, the general expectation was that the surge of Nazism as well as the depression had reached its peak and that things would look less bleak economically and politically.
The 1932 strategy of holding election after election to bleed the parties dry had taken its toll on the NSDAP. They had financial problems at the end of the year and also suffered two defeats in 1932: they failed to get Hitler elected president and their parliamentary rise stalled in the November elections.

It was an unfortunate, but not unavoidable series of events and intrigues during January '33 that led to Hitler's Chancellorships. Schleicher's unexpected failure as a Chancellor once he left the shadows of political backdoor dealing; Papens revenge against Schleicher at all cost; and a Hindenburg in by then full mental decline.

From Jan 31st on, things would get difficult to stop the Nazis.

And second of all, if Hindenburg refuses Hitler, do the nazis have any chance to win the likely civil war?

Likely? There was no civil war when Hitler lost the presidential election. No civil war when SA and SS were declared illegal for a while by Brüning (May-June 1932). There was no civil war at any other instance when Hindenburg appointed another non-Nazi to the chancellorship. I have to point it out, Hindenburg refused Hitler time and again before Jan 30th, 1933.


If a civil war came about how long would such a conflict last?

It would be short and/or low key. Whichever side they decide to be on, Reichswehr would tip the balance. In virtually all scenarios, a lot of the population and virtually the complete public service would be on this side- unless they want to fight all parties at once.
It is improbable that a German Civil War would ressemble the Spanish CW. It would rather be like a new, faster version of the events similar to 1919-23.

Another question would be, do the French occupy the Rhineland during a civil war?

A few years earlier, maybe, but by 1933? They would probably be glad that they don't have anything to do with such an internal quagmire. And, in 1933, the political will to foster separatism or to annex parts of the Rhineland was a thing of the past.
 
Re French occupation of the Rhineland, I think it's a clear possibility in case of a civil war - when it looks more like establishing a sanitary cordon that invading. The French Army had only left the Rhineland in 1930, after all, and it would prove unstoppable for the German forces of 1933.

In case of a really bad civil war, I wonder if some Rhineland industrialists might not actually welcome a French intervention - since this time it would come without appropriation, nor annexation of any sort.
 
A few questions:

First of all, is it really plausible for Hindenburg not to make Hitler Chancellor once you get to January 1933?

And second of all, if Hindenburg refuses Hitler, do the nazis have any chance to win the likely civil war?

If a civil war came about how long would such a conflict last?

Another question would be, do the French occupy the Rhineland during a civil war?

Hindenburg could avoid appointing Hitler for a while, but with his electoral strength, it was going to be very hard to keep him out for much longer. Unless one of the minority governments appointed in his place managed some spectacular success, the other parties would lose popularity and more undecideds would drift to the Nazis. You see that with opposition parties all the time. It's hard to see the Nazis disappearing until they held office and failed, or tried to take power by force.

If Hitler had any sense, he would just wait Hindenburg out. If he tried to seize power by force, he could be defeated if the army stuck with Hindenburg. The Nazi party could then be banned and their earlier electoral gains would count for nothing.

A French occupation of the Rhineland would be perilous, casting France as the bad guy and creating sympathy for the Germans. Since France was headed for disaster in 1940 anyway, though, I can't say that it would necessarily have been any worse in the long run.
 
If the government had not appointed Hitler, and elements within the Nazi party, like the very unreliable SA continued to make trouble, there might be a military coup engineered by Hindenburg and von Papen.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Re French occupation of the Rhineland, I think it's a clear possibility in case of a civil war - when it looks more like establishing a sanitary cordon that invading. The French Army had only left the Rhineland in 1930, after all, and it would prove unstoppable for the German forces of 1933.

In case of a really bad civil war, I wonder if some Rhineland industrialists might not actually welcome a French intervention - since this time it would come without appropriation, nor annexation of any sort.
Er..

The best way to unite the people in Germany during any sort of civil war is to have French troops marching into the Rhine.
 
Er..

The best way to unite the people in Germany during any sort of civil war is to have French troops marching into the Rhine.

If that was done à la 1923, as part of a punitive expedition, certainly. If it was done without seeking any agreement with the German Republik, certainly.

What I'm thinking about is a scenario where we have a civil war in Germany between the Nazis and the old forces of the Weimar Republik. The balance of forces would depend on the way the Reichswehr is split, but in case of a weak Republic, and with Nazis openly trying topple the German regime by a putsch, I wonder if France wouldn't try to prop up "Old Germany".
 
If that was done à la 1923, as part of a punitive expedition, certainly. If it was done without seeking any agreement with the German Republik, certainly.

What I'm thinking about is a scenario where we have a civil war in Germany between the Nazis and the old forces of the Weimar Republik. The balance of forces would depend on the way the Reichswehr is split, but in case of a weak Republic, and with Nazis openly trying topple the German regime by a putsch, I wonder if France wouldn't try to prop up "Old Germany".

French intervention in case of a german civil war is a nonsense.

The French make no effort to stop any germans actions when :

In 1932, the German government refused to continue to adhere to the Treaty of Versailles military limitations.

In 1935, Germany introduced compulsory military conscription and began rebuilding the armed forces including the Kriegmarine and the Luftwaffe.

In 1936, in violation of the Treaty of Versailles and the Treaty of Locarno, Germany remilitarized the Rhineland.

Eventually some french communists will try to smuggle weapons to their germans comrades.

But a foreign intervention in Germany is a real nonsense, everybody will be sitting and watch the show...

The only case of a possible french intervention will be a civil war where the communists begin to dominate. But it will be only possible if the UK or others countries will also send troops.
 
Yeah, the French will just be glad the Germans kill each other, France had troubles dealing with the depression and the rise of both radical leftists and rightists on the home front, and thus lacked political will to do anything about Germany.
 
Hindenburg could avoid appointing Hitler for a while, but with his electoral strength, it was going to be very hard to keep him out for much longer.

Minority governments had been in place since 1930.

Thus, I beg to differ. Not accepting the electoral success of the NSDAP was part of the strategy of discrediting parliamentary rule and to move the Weimar Republic into a Presidential/Authoritarian/Restaurative direction. All parties, including the Nazis, should exhaust themselves financially in campaigning, mentally in fruitless debates in the Reichstag, and in quarrels in the streets.

The "opposition"-argument does not fully work here, at the latest after Brüning's demise most parties where opposition parties. Some of the parties closest to the presidential governments where actually rather stable: the reactionary DNVP which supported von Papen remained stable at 6-8% in 1930-33. The Centrum, of which both Papen and Brüning were members remained between 11.3 and 12.5 during the four elections of 1930-33.

It's hard to see the Nazis disappearing until they held office and failed, or tried to take power by force.

They wouldn't go that quickly, but they had reached an electoral ceiling in 1932 (which can somewhat be proven by the disappointing result of 43.9% in March '33 when even massive inhibitions, manipulations and propaganda effort plus the "achievements" of their first weeks in power failed to bring them a majority on their own).

It is hard to imagine a government that bad that unemployment wouldn't fall in 1933. In fact, part of the programmes started in 1933 where in preparation beforehands. Even if unemployment falls less rapidly than OTL, it would drain the NS-appeal. Then there is the end of reparations.
Also, politically, the NSDAP was a rather destructive force. This may work attractively for a while in times of despair. But long range? German election results prior to 1932 and after 1945 give little indication that such an extremist party would attract more than 20% of the voters in the long run.
It would be interesting, though, what developments the NSDAP would undergo in such a situation.

If there is again another election say in summer of 1933, with unemployment having sunk by a million since winter - I can see the NSDAP continue the slow decline which marked the november-elections. Maybe they go down to 31%. Even remaining the strongest power in a powerless Reichstag, the signal would be seen that they were a frantic movement which had passed its zenith.

If Hitler had any sense, he would just wait Hindenburg out. If he tried to seize power by force, he could be defeated if the army stuck with Hindenburg. The Nazi party could then be banned and their earlier electoral gains would count for nothing.

If provocing a Civil War would have promised success, Hitler might well have tried. It is not as if the Nazis were shy of killing Germans. But sitting Hindenburg out...after November '33 it rather seemed to be now or never.

A French occupation of the Rhineland would be perilous, casting France as the bad guy and creating sympathy for the Germans. Since France was headed for disaster in 1940 anyway, though, I can't say that it would necessarily have been any worse in the long run.

I agree, though, with you and most recent contributors, that the risks in French intervention outweigh the possible gains and that Paris was most probably aware of that.

P.S. If anyone mentions Lippe, one should mention the insane campaigning which went on there as well and bear in mind that this land had only a little more than 100,000 voters.
 
French intervention in case of a german civil war is a nonsense.

Not so much - part of the problem the western democracies had when trying to oppose Hitler came from the fact he had been elected - legality and even democratic rule was on his side.

Here we'd have the Nazis trying to forcefully destroy the Weimar Republik - which certainly is not France's best friend, but it won't take long (or that much brains) before somebody thinks it's better to have von Papen (or Brüning) than Hitler.

The French make no effort to stop any germans actions when :

In 1932, the German government refused to continue to adhere to the Treaty of Versailles military limitations.

In 1935, Germany introduced compulsory military conscription and began rebuilding the armed forces including the Kriegmarine and the Luftwaffe.

In 1936, in violation of the Treaty of Versailles and the Treaty of Locarno, Germany remilitarized the Rhineland

And again, part of the problem with reacting to that was that the alternative to doing nothing was waging a war of aggression against a country some thought was simply reassessing its sovereign rights after a straight election.

With a civil war, I think the political cards are a lot different. Legality rests with the Weimar Republik, and the Nazis look just as bad as the Kozis would if it would be a Spartakist coup.
 
Here we'd have the Nazis trying to forcefully destroy the Weimar Republik - which certainly is not France's best friend, but it won't take long (or that much brains) before somebody thinks it's better to have von Papen (or Brüning) than Hitler.

First, to have a civil war you need to have weapons of both side of the conflict.

And the only side to have weapons in Germany, except some light weapons is the Reichwehr, and I don't see the Reichwehr spliting to support an austrian corporal and his brownshirts scum...

Second, nazis will not fight Reichwehr, the old ones where WWI veterans and the young wanted themselves to be in the army. If the Reichwehr decided to crush the nazis, most of them will simply go home and left the party.

Second, the French will happily wait the Germans to bleed themselves before acting. And they will not do anything except closed the borders and instaured an weapons embargo as during the Civil War in Spain...
 
First, to have a civil war you need to have weapons of both side of the conflict.

And the only side to have weapons in Germany, except some light weapons is the Reichwehr

Compared to other Civil Wars in history, the Reichswehr is quite handicapped:

- initial limitation to 100,000 men (which would change on the first day of conflict)
- only very light tanks
- no heavy artillery
- no airforce
Of course, these limitations have not been adhered to perfectly, but there is only so much we can attribute to the Reichswehr of 1932 which is against Versailles' limitations.

Then there is the "Schutzpolizei" (Police), consisting of 150,000 men.

Now....as to other para-military formations:

Stahlhelm (close to DNVP - conservative, increasingly Anti-Democratic, "fascist" as opposed to national socialism)...500,000 members

Bayernwacht (close to BVP - conservative, in the event under certain circumstances maybe Bavarian separatist, anti-NS)...30,000 members

Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold (close to SPD, democratic)...3,000,000 members; 250,000 of them in formation

Roter Frontkämpferbund (KPD)....100,000 members?

SA (NSDAP)... 400,000 core members, nominally much larger numbers
SS (NSDAP)... 50-100,000 members

Now there are a number of possible combinations, and one thing is for sure - we will never know how many guys would have turned out to actually go to war.


Second, the French will happily wait the Germans to bleed themselves before acting. And they will not do anything except closed the borders and instaured an weapons embargo as during the Civil War in Spain...

Exactly.
 
Compared to other Civil Wars in history, the Reichswehr is quite handicapped:

- initial limitation to 100,000 men (which would change on the first day of conflict)
- only very light tanks
- no heavy artillery
- no airforce
Of course, these limitations have not been adhered to perfectly, but there is only so much we can attribute to the Reichswehr of 1932 which is against Versailles' limitations.

Then there is the "Schutzpolizei" (Police), consisting of 150,000 men.

Now....as to other para-military formations:

You counted members of the paramilitary, I prefer count availability of weapons...

Please note that in Europe, even in the 1930's, citizens don't have weapons at home, eventually people in rural areas have hunting rifles, but no reserves of ammunitions for a long guerilla...

I don't know what are the hunting rights in Germany in the 1930's but in France with very extended hunting rights, people don't have military type weapons...

And even if some paramilitary keep weapons from the 1919-1921 fights, it will be light weapons : mausers rifles, maybe some machines-guns with small stocks of ammunition...

So a Reichwehr of 100 000 soldiers with superior training and tactics + its reserves, probably anoter 100 or 200 thousands men) equipped as regular infantry (WWI time) with light artillery, 77 mm for example will be sufficient to crush any SA troops with rifles and some machines-guns...

Crushing of a communist paramilitary will be even more successful because it will be the Reichwehr + the right-wing paramilitary...

The civil war in Spain was possible because the Nationalists have a large part of the army and the republican kept part of the army and access to the foreign market of weapons, at the beginning...

A nazi coup d'etat in 1933 will be something as a spartakist uprising, perhaps bloody but quickly crushed by a Reichwehr whose first goal of existence was to crush any internal uprising or revolutions...
 
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Compared to other Civil Wars in history, the Reichswehr is quite handicapped:

- initial limitation to 100,000 men (which would change on the first day of conflict)
- only very light tanks
- no heavy artillery
- no airforce
Of course, these limitations have not been adhered to perfectly, but there is only so much we can attribute to the Reichswehr of 1932 which is against Versailles' limitations.

Then there is the "Schutzpolizei" (Police), consisting of 150,000 men.

on the subject of numbers: i read somewhere that due to the versailles limitations, the Reichswehr was able to enact high standards for recruitment due to more people wishing to join the army than there was room for, this allowed for high quality training.

And a well trained professional force is exactly what you need when fighting a civil war, not some conscript force.
 
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