IJN Yamato - A different fate

OK, we all know what happened to IJN YAMATO in OTL - it sailed for Okinawa in April of 1945 and got blown out of the water. Operation ten-go IIRC. OK, so let's change that.

POD: The Japanese High Command decides to save the YAMATO for the actual invasion of Japan, rather than Okinawa. The YAMATO stays in the Inland Sea.

Hand-waving away, this has no impact on the war, so Japan still surrenders in August, before any invasion is launched. Further (and a bigger handwave) the YAMATO survives the various carpet bombing, submarines, air raids, and naval sweeps that the USN and USAAAF were conducting. So, as a part of the peace settlement, the US acquires IJN YAMATO, intact, as a war prize. Now what?

Please keep in mind that the Yamato is a relately new BB of unprecedented size and firepower, not some raggedy BC like HARUNA.

My Guesses:
1. Nothing. USN sails it the the West Coast, and sells it for scrap.
2. The USN keeps it for a few years as an experimental ship, then scraps it.
3. The IJN YAMATO gets a REAL good view of Bikini Atoll from atop the explosion from an a-bomb test.
4. The USN rechristens it USS [insert state name here - for yucks I'll say RHODE ISLAND (biggest ship, smallest state, whatever] and keeps it active as regular ship until the 1960s when it is decommissioned and sold.

Those are the most likely (1, 2 and 3 more so than 4). Let's go for some wacky ones now.

1. We give it the Nationalist Chinese as a war prize. Could impact the Civil War a bit; makes taking Taiwan REALLY hard for the Communists.
2. We give it to Stalin. Why not? Maybe warms over some cooling relations - and it's not really a threat to the USN anyway. Does anyone know if Stalin was impressed by big shiny phallic symbols?
3. We give it to the French. Brit suggestion (and no, the Brits don't want it) - way of apologizing for Mers El Kebir.

Anyone else have an idea?

Mike Turcotte
 
I would say that the US would examine the ships and then might use it for the nuclear test. However giving it to the Nationalist is a real possibility.
With the ship in the Nationalist Navy the Nationalist could have kept a hold on the Mainland. There was nothing that the PLA had that could touch it and those giant 18,1 inch guns would destroy any attempt at a siege on Shanghai.
 
I think it'd be fun (though all but ASB) to give the ship to the French.

The French, not really sure what to do with it, station it in Indochina.

When Vietnam starts to heat up, the North Vietnamese wind up with the ship (special operation, raid, accident of war...). With a lot of help from Soviet "advisers" they manage to get the ship out to sea one fine day...

Where she encounters the USS Missouri and we finally get a ship-to-ship duel between a Yamato-class and an Iowa-class BB!
 

Da Pwnzlord

Banned
I think it would be used in the Bikini Atoll tests. IIRC, there is very little modern precedent for using captured enemy ships in the victor's navy. The High Seas Fleet was used for gunnery practice and air bombing, and any floating Axis ship of significance was blown up at Bikini. (Except maybe for like one obsolete Italian battleship that was given to the Russians)
 
Bikini Targetl

I'd expect it to be used at Bikini. Its heavier protection would be a useful comparison to the older American battleships expended there. I can't see the USN bothering with it--heck, we were cancelling battleship construction by that time.

As far as someone else using it, the Italians (and I believe the French) did use some High Seas Fleet light units in their navies, up until the 1930's in some cases. A captured ship can be used, but it is a PAIN! There is modern precedent for using captured ships.

Stalin wanted battleships, and work on Soviet battleships continued, IIRC, after the was was over. He'd be impressed-and overwhelemed trying to keep it running.

As for the Nationalist Chineese, I think it would be no more than a floating battery--but in the right place, guns like that are very effective.
 
I'd go with #2 crossed with #3: USN takes it, studies it, plays with it a while, then sends it to Bikini Bottom [1].

But since that's boring I'm curious about the China Option. Would it really be anough to hold a piece of mainland China for the Nationalists? Sure, deadly fire support, but would that be enough? I'd assume it'd be more useful in a scortched earth plan, i.e. leaving Mao a lot of rubble to clean up on the ports, than in truly holding down turf.


1 - Where it falls into one of Plankton's nefarious plans! :D
 
What is the possibility Yamato may have been preserved as a national war memorial, like the U-505 and other captured German ships?
 
A war memorial would be good, but there's one other possible fate: Upon receiving word that the war is over, the IJN takes her on one last voyage: out of Kure to deep water, where she's scuttled.
 
That's actually a pretty likley fate, if they can't have it no one can, right? OTOH, I'm almost certain the provisions of the surrender stated that all military machinery, equipment, etc were to be left as-is, so unless maybe there is a fanatically dedicated (Banzai for the Emperor!) resistance and they decide to scuttle it. Having said that, the next most likley option, as others have stated, is using it in the post-war atomic tests.
 
IF, then YAMATO does somehow manage to survive (huge handwave), it's not going to be in pristine condition guaranteed. As Japan's last major naval unit it's going to be a major target of American attacks. This IMO makes it's eventual fate as scrap far more likely.

Giving it away is a interesting option, however where would the recipient nation get the money/means to maintain said behemoth?
 
IF, then YAMATO does somehow manage to survive (huge handwave), it's not going to be in pristine condition guaranteed. As Japan's last major naval unit it's going to be a major target of American attacks. This IMO makes it's eventual fate as scrap far more likely.

Actually, Nagato also survived the war (granted, at a mere 42,000 tons she was a much smaller target than Yamato would have been). She was sunk in the Bikini tests.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
If it stays in port it gets pounded into scrap during the U.S. air offensive and during the carrier raids.

WAY too attractive a target to survive.
 
HMIJS Yamato might be saved as a battered vessel, like HMIJS Nagato, barely intact,, but not yet completely CTL, like Haruna and others. Her protection was more than adequate to resist the ordonance of the USN naval attack bombers and certainly torpredonetting and likewise barrierdefense against submarines and torpedoes, would have provided enough protection against dangers underwater. The softer ends might be l;ooking bad, but the citadel would have remained almost likely intact, as no USN bomb of the 1945 period could have penetrated the main armored deck.

If Yamato would still be in any shape after the war, in which she could be recovered somehow, I suspect she would have been treated as simmilar to the Italian Littorio class battleships, which were likewise modern examples of battleships. The Italian shipswere not used after the war, since the Allied Victors could not decide whom would get them, or at least one, so both were scrapped after the war. Yamato would likewise become a seriously wanted item after the war, so would therefore liewise be sold to the breakers, to get rid of the problem. Testing her as a target, like Nagato, would propably not have been done, since this might have been indicated Yamato went to the USA, as only the USA could mount such tests. Scrapping her, most likely in Japan was more likely, sicne other Japanese warships were scrapped there as well, shortly after the war.
 
2. We give it to Stalin. Why not? Maybe warms over some cooling relations - and it's not really a threat to the USN anyway. Does anyone know if Stalin was impressed by big shiny phallic symbols?

Stalin definitely was, and this would definitely be the best option from US point of view. The Grand Aerial Target would sucker on Soviet resources until Khruschev came into power.
 
Yamato would probably be scrapped after the war. Giving it to somebody else is highly unlikely. The Nagato would be used in the nuclear tests - part of the reason it was used was because it had been Admiral Yamamoto's flagship during the attack on Pearl Harbor.

If we're talking interesting fantasy results, I'd say the best one is that it gets taken by the USN as a war prize, and sailed to California in order to do a major examination of it, as the Americans would be looking to examine it, just to see what it is capable of. It goes straight to Long Beach Naval Shipyard, where the US rip the thing apart to find out as much as they can about it. It spends most of 1946 and 1947 there as a result. Nobody in the USA is up to scrapping something so big right after the end of WWII, so the Yamato is moved to the reserve fleet at Suisun Bay and stays there through the 1940s and 1950s. A proposal is brought up to give the Yamato back to Japan - the massive battleship, while obsolete in modern warfare, would likely still be a major point of pride for Japan - or even to commission the brute into the USN to fight in Korea, but neither comes to pass. Japan becomes fully independent in 1952, and over the 1950s and 1960s Japan grows dramatically in terms of economics, and becomes a staunch ally of the United States.

In 1972, the same agreement which gives Okinawa back to Japan also sees Japan ask for the return of the Yamato. It's useless in modern warfare, but the Japanese envision it being turned into a museum ship. In August 1972, the Yamato is towed back to Japan and is docked in Nagasaki, and after a major cleanup and repair, is opened to the public in September 1974.

In the 1980s, Japanese politicians and their American counterparts came to the agreement that Japan was important to the United States. A faction of the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force took heart from Reagan's decision to recommission the Iowa class battleships and in 1982, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and this faction proposes bringing Yamato back to life as a warship, while also salvaging its sunken sister ship, Musashi, for use as the museum. This movement gains massive traction in Japan, and is appealing to many Japanese politicians - the battleship would be a very suitable flagship for the Japanese Naval Forces, while not likely being too antagonizing to its neighbors. The Americans raise no real objections to the idea, though privately they are somewhat surprised that the Japanese would have the chutzpah to bring back one of its most fearsome weapons of World War II. The idea is approved in August 1983, and the ship is towed to Mitsubishi's shipyard in Nagasaki and begins modernization.

The modernization plans for the Yamato are considerably more extensive than those done on America's Iowa class battleships. The AA guns and 155mm are removed in their entirety, as are two of the 5" mounts. The insides of the main gun turrets, which had been largely dismantled by the Americans and never repaired, were gutted and rebuilt using two-stage hoists and adding newer powder bags. Like the Iowas, Yamato is fitted with Harpoon cruise missiles, though the ship is also fitted with Sea Sparrow anti-aircraft missiles, which are fitted in pop-up assemblies allowing them to not be damaged by the immense gun backblast. The exhaust stack and tall "pagoda" are dismantled and replaced, and the new superstructure provides far more space, removing any potential problems with space requirements.

The ship's boilers are replaced with electronically-controlled units, which in addition to massively reducing the number of crewmen needed to operate the ship, improved the ship's power from 150,000 shp to 220,000 shp, improving the ship's top speed from 27 knots to 30.5 knots, improving the ship's fuel economy and massively increasing the ship's electrical generating capacity. The 155mm secondaries got new guns and hoists, improving their firing speeds, and the ship was fitted with four Phalanx CIWS units. The aircraft and boat launching facilities are removed, and the rear of the vessel is reconfigured to allow the gaps used by these facilities to be used as a helicopter deck and hangar, used by two SH-60J or HSS-2B helicopters. In addition, the ship was fitted with far-improved creature comforts, including air conditioning and the latest in modern electronics and communication systems, including a 3D radar system, modern fire control and electronic warfare systems and many other systems improvements.

Fitted as such, JDS Yamato commissioned into the JMSDF with some fanfare on April 15, 1986. Her first journey, fittingly enough, was to sail to San Francisco, where she was met the newly-recommissioned USS Missouri in San Francisco. There, Yamato met her WWII nemesis for the first time, and many wondered which of the two would have been victorious had they taken each other on - but most of the crews of both vessels agreed that it would have been a tough fight for both vessels, and that it was a good thing that they were now on the same side.

Yamato spent much of 1986 and 1987 sailing around the Pacific Ocean, visiting ports around the Pacific. While she was warmly welcomed in several ports - including Sydney, Singapore, Manila, Vancouver and a number of American ports, including San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles and Seattle - she was not allowed to visit China under any circumstances, and she was only allowed to dock in Korea just before the 1988 Olympics in Seoul. Yamato made an appearance at the RIMPAC exercises in 1987, doing a gunfire demonstration for the assembled vessels.

In February 1988, Yamato left Yokosuka for the first around-the-world cruise by vessels of the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force. First stopping in Vancouver, she made her way down the west coast of the Americas, stopping San Francisco, Los Angeles, Acapulco, Lima and Valparaiso, before sailing around Cape Horn. Calling again at Buenos Aires and Rio de Janiero, she skirted the Caribbean, calling at Miami and New York in late April. Crossing the Atlantic, the ship made the first ever visit by a Japanese naval vessel to Great Britain (at Portsmouth), as well as calling at Rotterdam, Wilhelmshaven, Lisbon, Barcelona, Toulon, Rome and Athens before sailing down the Suez Canal. Calling again at Bombay, the ship sailed to Perth, Australia, via Colombo in Sri Lanka. Visits to Melbourne, Auckland, the Fiji Islands and Brisbane followed, before the ship steamed north back to Japan via Guam and Okinawa, arriving in Kure on August 15, 1988. The ship was there but a month before she sailed to Incheon, South Korea, for the opening of the 1988 Summer Olympics.

JDS Yamato remains in the Japanese Navy as its flagship, having taken the mantle of the world's last battleship when USS Missouri was decommissioned on March 31, 1992. The ship was the first ship to be renamed JS Yamato after the Ministry of Defense was upgraded to a full ministry in 2007. The ship's high operating costs meant that it did not sail as much in the 1990s and early 2000s as it had in times past, but the ship is still able to act as a full warship, and owing to her almost-mythical status among the Japanese, is likely to remain so for some time to come.

OOC: I know this has giant holes. But I thought it cool - and Yamato does have something of a legend in Japan. :)
 
The Yamato would probably be examined over by the USN for research purposes, and afterwards, scrapped or sunk as a target, either in a nuclear test or a conventional training exercise. Another possibility is it being used as a World War II museum ship. As for it entering the USN as a commissioned vessel, that is probably unlikely.
 
Most likely it gets sunk in harbor by bombers. If surrendered, USN would not be able to resist dropping a nuke on the vanquished enemy's capital ship for the symbolic value. "The sun rises on the Yamato", yada yada.

It's far too expensive for Nationalist China to maintain and operate. China didn't even want the cruiser Sakawa.

I doubt the French had that much money to burn either. Their economy was in pretty dire straits at the time. Of course they might mothball it and refit later. But even a mothballed battleship is still expensive to keep around.
 

Sir Chaos

Banned
Speaking of nukes and Yamato´s relative invulnerability to conventional bombs... would whatever port Yamato was in not have ranked relatively high on the list of A-bomb targets?

I mean, the ship was by itself the bulk of the remaining IJN, it was damn hard to destroy by conventional carpet-bombing, and dropping the nuke near it would give some valuable data on how much damage nukes can do to warships - not enough to make the Bikini tests unnecessary, but still... AND it would have sent another message to both the Japanese and Stalin: "Your military forces are worthless in the face of nuclear bombing".
 
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