A House Divided Can Stand Alone: A TL

The Dude

Banned
Recently, people have pointed out in NP chat that I have not contributed much to the actual alternate history forum. I decided that these people were right. I have had a lot of free time lately, so I thought about what I could do to remedy this problem and start to be taken seriously on this board. The answer was simple: write a TL. Now, I knew that this timeline not only had to be good, but it had to be original. So I asked myself: what scenario can you think of that has never been done before? That's when it hit me. Every single time someone had a Confederate victory thread, the same thing always happened: the CSA allies with the UK and France in WWI, and the USA allies with the CP. This led me to think: what if the CSA were to choose a different path than that? What if they thought that they're nation was founded on the principle that doing what other nations told them to do was unacceptable? With that in mind, I present to you, my very first timeline, A House Divided Can Stand Alone!
 

The Dude

Banned
[FONT=&quot]Ever since the end of the War of Secession, the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Confederacy’s allies had been pressuring the new nation to abandon its practice of slavery. The CSA[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]however, would hear none of this. By 1876, Britain and France were beginning to tarnish their international reputations due to their support for the nation that engaged in a practice that had been looked down upon by the rest of the civilized world for years. They decided that they had had enough. Britain and France began to straight-out demand that the CSA abolish slavery. As a result, President Thomas Jackson made the following famous speech before the Confederate Congress:[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]“Hello, gentlemen of this esteemed congress. I have come here before you today to talk about something that is of the most vital importance to the continued well being of our nation. I am of course speaking of our allies’ demands for us to abolish our Peculiar Institution. Now, when we signed the Common Defense Treaty with Britain and France, we made it very clear that they were to accept us as we were. They were not to pressure us in any form about the way we choose to live our lives. We have ignored requests for us to abolish our Peculiar Institution in the past: as these were mere requests, we simply ignored them, and did not hold them to their treaty obligations. Now, they have gone too far. That is why I have gathered before you fine men of the Confederacy today: not only to request an end to the Common Defense Treaty on the grounds of violation of that treaty by the governments of Britain and France, but also a policy of complete neutrality and isolation in all foreign matters that do not concern us. Thank you and good day.”[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]Immediately after Jackson left the podium, uproar spread through congress. Some agreed with Jackson, saying that to suck up to their allies was exactly the opposite of the principles Confederate States was founded upon. Others said that, though the CSA had been founded on different principles than this, those who agreed with Jackson were ignoring the basic realities of international relations. For three days, people on both sides of the Atlantic looked upon Richmond with anxiety. Finally, the word got out that the majority of congressmen had decided that Britain and France had violated the CDT, and thus terminated the treaty. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Britain and France were absolutely furious. They considered many different punishments for the CSA. Outright war was thrown out the door as soon as it was suggested. A trade embargo seemed more appealing, but it was decided that it would have too many adverse effects on their respective economies. Finally, they managed to settle on a punishment that was deemed the most rational and beneficial: and alliance with the USA.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]First, both nations made an official apology for supporting the rebellion, stating that it was both morally and politically wrong. They then offered an outright alliance with the USA. The United States, at this point, was just beginning to recover from the national shame suffered at the hands of the Confederacy. Naturally, they were quite surprised to learn of their for mere enemies’ offers. That is not to say they were displeased or suspicious: quite the contrary, American congressmen decided that the US had nothing to lose, and the bill to make a formal alliance with Britain and France passed almost unanimously.
[/FONT]




[FONT=&quot]As for how the CSA won the Civil War ITTL, just assume it was similar to TL 191, and that Lee was president after Davis and before Jackson.
[/FONT]
 
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Interesting, I shall pop in from time to time to check it out. Hope you can manage to save your reputation.
 
As a Southerner, I like :).

I wonder, if the CSA has gotten rid of its friendship with Britain and France, will they find new friends? Germany? Mexico? Spain maybe? I feel like they need some one to be friends with, or else they will be gobbled up the next chance the USA gets.
 

The Dude

Banned
I enjoy this Tl, even if it doesn't ean much to you.
Believe me, it means a lot.:)

Sounds interesting. Consider me subscribed.
Thank you very much, sir.

As a Southerner, I like :).

I wonder, if the CSA has gotten rid of its friendship with Britain and France, will they find new friends? Germany? Mexico? Spain maybe? I feel like they need some one to be friends with, or else they will be gobbled up the next chance the USA gets.
Actually, the point of this TL was to create a CSA that is about as isolationist as the USA was in the 30's, so I doubt you'll see many allies early on. However, not everything is set in stone.;)
 
As long as you don't go the cliche route of Cuba and everything in the West Indies being gobbled up by the Confederates, I'm going to enjoy this.
 

The Dude

Banned
As long as you don't go the cliche route of Cuba and everything in the West Indies being gobbled up by the Confederates, I'm going to enjoy this.
An isolationist CSA grabbing carribean islands? How exactly would that work?:confused::D
The entire point of this TL was to escape those CSA wins cliches. Don't worry, I have plans for Cuba and Puerto Rico (plus a few other Spanish colonies;)).
 
As long as the US still holds a grudge from the Civil War, a CSA without allies is going to look very vulnerable and appealing to US leaders. Expect a war with the US very soon after this happens, especially if the US has Britain and France blessing any actions it takes.
 

The Dude

Banned
As long as the US still holds a grudge from the Civil War, a CSA without allies is going to look very vulnerable and appealing to US leaders. Expect a war with the US very soon after this happens, especially if the US has Britain and France blessing any actions it takes.
They will not bless every action, especially not a war with the CSA. They have made this very clear to the USA. Without the UK and France, the USA is not willing to risk the inevitable losses involved in a war on the Confederacy.
 
Some constructive criticism on the idea of a Britain/France/US alliance. First some stuff I dislike about it, and my reasoning, second some advice on how to make it better.

The whole reasoning behind their potential (but probably very unlikely) military support of the CSA was to weaken the United States. They basically saw an uppity nation espousing radical ideas, and it was a threat to their interests. Supporting the CSA would both weaken the US and help create a balance of power. Getting into an alliance with the US completely defeats that purpose. By propping up the weakened US, they're just putting it at a better position to damage their interests. The leaders of France and Britain are not stupid enough to think that an alliance will ultimately keep the US docile. Economically, both nations were strong enough on their own and with normal trade. They might get a little bump from beneficial trade treaties, but not much. For military, the US is largely useless. What threats are there in the region? Canada is British, Mexico is a French puppet, the CS really isn't strong enough to do much damage to the European powers. America's conscript military just wasn't equipped or capable to prove a decisive factor in European wars.* In actuality, it's more likely the US would just drag Europe into a second Civil War. And, hell, once the US+Britain+France win that and the US reabsorbs the South, what have the European powers gained? A strong regional threat that's placated... for the moment.

As for America's point of view, there's no way in hell they'd agree to an alliance. America's global isolationism was still in effect. Washington's "no foreign entanglements" was still remembered by most of the US. America was suspicious of getting involved with Europe. The idea of America and Europe working together to make the world a better place is really a post-WW2 creation. And especially Britain and France in a timeline where those two nations just intervened in a bitter war on the opposing side. Could you imagine Osama bin Laden coming out and saying "Hey, we should be friends with the US now! Sorry about the whole 9/11 thing!" That's not to say a US alliance with either of them isn't in the cards decades in the future, but only about a decade after the end of the war?

First recommendation: Britain and France don't get directly involved with the war. Helping bust the blockade, sure. Economic assistance, sure. But direct assistance is a bit much. It's both ASB for them to get directly involved, and makes it extremely unrealistic for the whole "be allies with Confederates then get abandoned for a very petty reason then becomes allies with the US for another really petty and completely impractical reason" plan.

Second recommendation: With Britain and French direct intervention removed, try a different POD. Think about different possibilities for the CSA to win the war. Think more incompetent Union generals. Some idiot Union general moves into Kentucky before Bragg does, pushing it into the Confederate camp? Maybe a more successful Maryland Campaign? The Democrats win in '64 after strong Confederate campaigns? New York and Pennsylvania weren't overwhelming Lincoln victories, and they'd turn the lopsided 212-12 electoral vote to 153-80. Still pretty one-sided, but combined with a few other changes and failures of the Union military (same general that fucked up Kentucky leads to a relative Midwestern stalemate, instead of the entire Mississippi being captured?)... I'm just babbling here to give you some inspiration. Take a look at some of the things I've said, check out what you think of them and their possibility. Use any or all of my suggestions here if you want. Better yet, take your own look into them, and figure out how to make them as plausible as possible instead of just a bunch of random PODs.

Third recommendation: So, you've removed Europe from direct intervention, and have still found a way for the South to win the war. Hurrah! Next step is getting that pesky alliance. See, a lot of things I've said still apply. But after the war, it's possible for the US to go one of two ways: having had a major military embarrassment, it holes up. The people become isolationist and don't want to intervene in foreign conflicts. Or, having lost a lot of territory and a major wound to national pride, a charismatic and aggressive leader decides to bolster patriotism through foreign adventures and supporting filibusters. The US isn't going to be ready to move onto the latter for a number of years, but given time, it's definitely possible. From there, it's up to you. Take a look at the end of the Second Mexican Empire. It's a natural diplomatic meeting point for the US and France. How can you use it to make them friendly? That's up to you. :)

Fourth recommendation: Research, research, research! A good timeline does not come easy. It's not a simple matter of saying "Wouldn't it be cool to see American troops fighting in Bavaria during the Franco-Prussian War?" If you want a timeline to be good and accurate, be prepared to research. This can be as simple as looking things up on Wikipedia and poking around the internet or as complex as devoting the majority of your free time to a single timeline (see Jared & Decades of Darkness).

I think that's about it for now. Good luck!
 
They will not bless every action, especially not a war with the CSA. They have made this very clear to the USA. Without the UK and France, the USA is not willing to risk the inevitable losses involved in a war on the Confederacy.

Ah. I interpreted what you posted as the US enjoying a free hand from the British and French against the CSA. I still think the US is going to attack the CSA at some point before 1900 ITTL. The CSA is without the two allies that could have actually helped it in a war with the US. The US still has a 2-1 numerical advantage, along with a greater lead in every kind of industry. They won't even have to worry about internal support, since the CSA will be so damn easy to demonize at home. They will realize that they can win a war against the CSA, and once they realize that, they will attack as soon as possible. As long as Britain and France stay out of the war, the US will win.
 

The Dude

Banned
Some constructive criticism on the idea of a Britain/France/US alliance. First some stuff I dislike about it, and my reasoning, second some advice on how to make it better.

The whole reasoning behind their potential (but probably very unlikely) military support of the CSA was to weaken the United States. They basically saw an uppity nation espousing radical ideas, and it was a threat to their interests. Supporting the CSA would both weaken the US and help create a balance of power. Getting into an alliance with the US completely defeats that purpose. By propping up the weakened US, they're just putting it at a better position to damage their interests. The leaders of France and Britain are not stupid enough to think that an alliance will ultimately keep the US docile. Economically, both nations were strong enough on their own and with normal trade. They might get a little bump from beneficial trade treaties, but not much. For military, the US is largely useless. What threats are there in the region? Canada is British, Mexico is a French puppet, the CS really isn't strong enough to do much damage to the European powers. America's conscript military just wasn't equipped or capable to prove a decisive factor in European wars.* In actuality, it's more likely the US would just drag Europe into a second Civil War. And, hell, once the US+Britain+France win that and the US reabsorbs the South, what have the European powers gained? A strong regional threat that's placated... for the moment.

As for America's point of view, there's no way in hell they'd agree to an alliance. America's global isolationism was still in effect. Washington's "no foreign entanglements" was still remembered by most of the US. America was suspicious of getting involved with Europe. The idea of America and Europe working together to make the world a better place is really a post-WW2 creation. And especially Britain and France in a timeline where those two nations just intervened in a bitter war on the opposing side. Could you imagine Osama bin Laden coming out and saying "Hey, we should be friends with the US now! Sorry about the whole 9/11 thing!" That's not to say a US alliance with either of them isn't in the cards decades in the future, but only about a decade after the end of the war?

First recommendation: Britain and France don't get directly involved with the war. Helping bust the blockade, sure. Economic assistance, sure. But direct assistance is a bit much.

Second recommendation: With Britain and French direct intervention removed, try a different POD. Think about different possibilities for the CSA to win the war. Think more incompetent Union generals. Some idiot Union general moves into Kentucky before Bragg does, pushing it into the Confederate camp? Maybe a more successful Maryland Campaign? The Democrats win in '64 after strong Confederate campaigns? New York and Pennsylvania weren't overwhelming Lincoln victories, and they'd turn the lopsided 212-12 electoral vote to 153-80. Still pretty one-sided, but combined with a few other changes and failures of the Union military (same general that fucked up Kentucky leads to a relative Midwestern stalemate, instead of the entire Mississippi being captured?)... I'm just babbling here to give you some inspiration. Take a look at some of the things I've said, check out what you think of them and their possibility. Use any or all of my suggestions here if you want. Better yet, take your own look into them, and figure out how to make them as plausible as possible instead of just a bunch of random PODs.

Third recommendation: So, you've removed Europe from direct intervention, and have still found a way for the South to win the war. Hurrah! Next step is getting that pesky alliance. See, a lot of things I've said still apply. But after the war, it's possible for the US to go one of two ways: having had a major military embarrassment, it holes up. The people become isolationist and don't want to intervene in foreign conflicts. Or, having lost a lot of territory and a major wound to national pride, a charismatic and aggressive leader decides to bolster patriotism through foreign adventures and supporting filibusters. The US isn't going to be ready to move onto the latter for a number of years, but given time, it's definitely possible. From there, it's up to you. Take a look at the end of the Second Mexican Empire. It's a natural diplomatic meeting point for the US and France. How can you use it to make them friendly? That's up to you. :)

Fourth recommendation: Research, research, research! A good timeline does not come easy. It's not a simple matter of saying "Wouldn't it be cool to see American troops fighting in Bavaria during the Franco-Prussian War?" If you want a timeline to be good and accurate, be prepared to research. This can be as simple as looking things up on Wikipedia and poking around the internet or as complex as devoting the majority of your free time to a single timeline (see Jared & Decades of Darkness).

I think that's about it for now. Good luck!
Well, lets not forget about the fact that the CSA is also a practitioner of not only democracy, but slavery, thus making it even more of a liability than the USA, in my opinion. Also, I will have the European Powers make absolutely sure that the USA plays nice with its rebellious brother: they may not like the Confederacy, but they still prefer the idea of a balance of power in the Americas. The reason the USA accepted the offers of foreign alliance was that the congress decided that we had nothing to lose. We never wanted to experience the humiliation of defeat again, so this looked like a rational idea to them. The USA is really taking all they can get at this point. And dont worry, Britain and France will not get involved in the war because there wont be any war. The point of this TL is partially to have the CSA survive well into the 20th century. The USA will not declare war on the CSA without European support, which they will not receive. And I do plan one doing research, especially when I don't know about something. Thank you for your kind words. I hope you continue to enjoy my TL as much as I enjoyed writing those first words. I'm sure you know that this is a big step for me and my reputation on this board, and therefore I am quite nervous, so I greatly appreciate the fact that you are criticizing me constructively. Also, I have not really thought much about what will happen with Mexico. That will require further research into the subject, which I am prepared to do. Also, I'm not really interested in how the CSA won the Civil War. That is not why I wrote this. You can fill in those gaps any way you prefer. I just want them to win early on. From there, I don't really care all that much.
 

The Dude

Banned
Ah. I interpreted what you posted as the US enjoying a free hand from the British and French against the CSA. I still think the US is going to attack the CSA at some point before 1900 ITTL. The CSA is without the two allies that could have actually helped it in a war with the US. The US still has a 2-1 numerical advantage, along with a greater lead in every kind of industry. They won't even have to worry about internal support, since the CSA will be so damn easy to demonize at home. They will realize that they can win a war against the CSA, and once they realize that, they will attack as soon as possible. As long as Britain and France stay out of the war, the US will win.
Yes, they will, but are they willing to pay the price for it? Perhaps Britain and France would even kick the USA out of the alliance? After all, they do have an interest in keeping the balance of power in North America, no matter how angry they are at the CSA.
 
Honestly, I passed over this TL a couple times recently and then I noticed that you were the author and so I have some hopes for it. Good luck! And please feel free to try and use the community to your advantage. Don't let the occasional "ASB!" comment discourage you. The dozen posts are the hardest. I need to get past that hump myself. :rolleyes:
 
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