Development of an American Canada

So, lets say that, by some POD, (don't really care what, maybe the Quebec offensive really lucks out, maybe the Continental Congress gets Nova Scotia to join as a 14th colony, whatever) results the British completely withdrawing from North America at the end of the American Revolution. My question is, how would "Canada" develop as part of the United States, and how would the inclusion of Canada affect the US. Specifically:

1) How would Quebec fit into the union? Would there be a large amount of cultural tensions between it and the rest of the US? Would Quebec seccessionism in the 19th century be a possibility, and is there any chance of Quebec and Southern seccessionists forming some kind of tactical alliance? (ie, they both want to leave the US, but for different reasons)

2) Assuming Quebec doesn't leave, would America's sense of itself be affected by the fact that part of it is very different, culturally and religiously, from the rest of it?

3) Where would the loyalists go? And who settles *Ontario in their absence-Quebec or the Anglophone US?

4) Would the various parts of *Canada be tied economically to each other as much as OTL? In particular, would be see anything like the Canadian Pacific railway?

5) How would having Canada's resources and population affect the economic and political development of the US?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
So, lets say that, by some POD, (don't really care what, maybe the Quebec offensive really lucks out, maybe the Continental Congress gets Nova Scotia to join as a 14th colony, whatever) results the British completely withdrawing from North America at the end of the American Revolution. My question is, how would "Canada" develop as part of the United States, and how would the inclusion of Canada affect the US. Specifically:

1) How would Quebec fit into the union? Would there be a large amount of cultural tensions between it and the rest of the US? Would Quebec seccessionism in the 19th century be a possibility, and is there any chance of Quebec and Southern seccessionists forming some kind of tactical alliance? (ie, they both want to leave the US, but for different reasons)

2) Assuming Quebec doesn't leave, would America's sense of itself be affected by the fact that part of it is very different, culturally and religiously, from the rest of it?

3) Where would the loyalists go? And who settles *Ontario in their absence-Quebec or the Anglophone US?

4) Would the various parts of *Canada be tied economically to each other as much as OTL? In particular, would be see anything like the Canadian Pacific railway?

5) How would having Canada's resources and population affect the economic and political development of the US?

1) There was an attempt at an uprising in Montreal by french merchants, especially the huguenot minority. But at the time Montreal was a small provincial city of barely 3000 while Quebec was the colony's main city. The grievances against the BEIC, especially, could be shared by both; the british conquest led to an almost complete death of a number of local industries because of BEIC monopolies. The original governor, however, was very conciliatory with the french (for this he was sacked), so you'd need someone who is more friendly to the BEIC than OTL as governor at the time...

2) It probably causes frictions around the time of the "great revival" but not as much until then. Large amounts of german immigration were already beginning at the time (mentioned by Franklin even who claimed that some parts of the colonies were majority german at that point) so the linguistic part likely plays less until the mid-to-late 19th century.

3) Depends, part of Ontario already have a french presence at the time and are part of the province of Quebec; [EDIT: I made a mistake; until 1788, all four initial districts of Ontario were part of Québec, they were only split off for the loyalists] IOTL, a lot of loyalists also settled New Brunswick, that's the reason it was separated from Nova Scotia; ITTL they could be more numerous in Nova Scotia (there weren't all that many of them), or pick Newfoundland. Some but not all of the four districts might become their own state but it's not all that likely as french settlement in the area has already started. The rest of Ontario, though, along with the "New Quebec" area will likely end up forming its own state as a kind of western Alaska (Hudson maybe?) and a state or two in the district of Keewatin; it would end up being comparable to the Dakotas, but at the time it's still Hudson's bay company land. Another part that might form its own state is the area around Sherbrooke, which at the time isn't settled and is claimed by two more states. Western Ontario might end up in a situation like Kentucky relative to Virginia, though, but since in 1776 it's majority catholic and french, I'm sure some people will balk at the idea in that situation where they get 4 votes (IIRC the area has already enough population to form its own state even if we go by the Ohio rule of thumb), plus outside of "the provinces is large" (actually the area is comparable to California and Texas before the 20th century territorial gains), there's not much of a reason.

4) Likely, yes but also to the US - a continental railroad will likely be built but later than IOTL, since then it was mostly a way to convince BC to join.

5) At the time of the revolution, Québec alone has about 8-10% of the US' population, putting it in the larger states IIRC. If demographics go as OTL, the main worry in the 19th century would probably be the really huge population growth of the french canadians, but it might also absorb a larger share of OTL irish immigration too.
 
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I don't think the U.S. could take all of Canada. Many Canadians were loyalists, IIRC.

If Quebec were to join the Union, there would probably be some tension. They're Papists, after all. But, I don't think it would be too much worse than cultural tensions between the North and South, unless people try to settle in Quebec. They wouldn't try to secede or ally with the South in a Civil War for no particular reason. There needs to be a trigger of some sort. The inclusion of a culturally distinct state could lead to a more decentralized Union.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I don't think the U.S. could take all of Canada. Many Canadians were loyalists, IIRC.

If Quebec were to join the Union, there would probably be some tension. They're Papists, after all. But, I don't think it would be too much worse than cultural tensions between the North and South, unless people try to settle in Quebec. They wouldn't try to secede or ally with the South in a Civil War for no particular reason. There needs to be a trigger of some sort. The inclusion of a culturally distinct state could lead to a more decentralized Union.

Also when I write Canada I mean it in its definition as the area that became Quebec and Ontario IOTL, minus the Hudson's Bay company land, the other provinces at the time were still not conceptually part of Canada. So it doesn't include Newfoundland and (still united at the time) Nova Scotia. And french canadian loyalism is often overstated, a better politician than Benedict Arnold with maybe a french staff officer on hand would have had a better chance imo, although it might still have failed at breaking the citadel of Quebec.

Also, if we keep OTL demographics the same, US + Canada - Northern Provinces of Mexico would have about 250 million people today, but I suspect it would have changed migratory patterns. A "State of Québec" (or of Canada) might also get at colonizing its western regions earlier instead of leaving them as sparsely settled as OTL, meaning less emigration; a situation where they're a single large state and have a more concentrated (thus more numerous too) french population would probably be enough for there to be little risk to french; by comparison Louisiana had less than a quarter the population on six times the territory).
 
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Also when I write Canada I mean it in its definition as the area that became Quebec and Ontario IOTL, minus the Hudson's Bay company land, the other provinces at the time were still not conceptually part of Canada. So it doesn't include Newfoundland and (still united at the time) Nova Scotia. And french canadian loyalism is often overstated, a better politician than Benedict Arnold with maybe a french staff officer on hand would have had a better chance imo, although it might still have failed at breaking the citadel of Quebec.

Also, if we keep OTL demographics the same, US + Canada - Northern Provinces of Mexico would have about 250 million people today, but I suspect it would have changed migratory patterns. A "State of Québec" (or of Canada) might also get at colonizing its western regions earlier instead of leaving them as sparsely settled as OTL, meaning less emigration; a situation where they're a single large state and have a more concentrated (thus more numerous too) french population would probably be enough for there to be little risk to french; by comparison Louisiana had less than a quarter the population on six times the territory).

I didn't think Quebec would be very loyalistic.

What was the population of the rest of Canada, other than Quebec and Ontario? If it's as sparsely populated as I'd imagine, the British might just say "Okay, here, take it," like they did with the part of British North America east of the Thirteen Colonies. How much of this territory is potentially arable farmland?

I'm curious as to how the addition of Quebecer delegates would effect the Philadelphia Convention, assuming it would still happen as in OTL.
 
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archaeogeek

Banned
I didn't think Quebec would be very loyalistic.

What was the population of the rest of Canada, other than Quebec and Ontario? If it's as sparsely populated as I'd imagine, the British might just say "Okay, here, take it," like they did with the part of British North America east of the Thirteen Colonies. How much of this territory is potentially arable farmland?

I'm curious as to how the addition of Quebecer delegates would effect the Philadelphia Convention, assuming it would still happen as in OTL.

At the time, the population of the entire rest of Canada was probably a handful; about 20.000 in Newfoundland, about 80-100.000 for the Maritimes (pre-split Nova Scotia), and the entire west would have had a few hundred whites, a few thousand Michif (mixed French-Cree population speaking a creole of both) and probably about ten times as many other natives. Most of what would become Canada was under the supervision of the Hudson's Bay Company and was only open to settlement after the Frasier gold rush with the settlement of the first BC colony, Manitoba was after 1867 and the other two provinces in the prairies at the end of the century.

The house of the leader of the group who tried to set up a provisional state government for "Canada" (i.e. the province of Quebec) still exists in Montreal.

(Also there's a few historians who already put out the thesis that one of the problems with Arnold was that, unlike some of the francophiles in the army, he didn't speak french; it may seem unimportant from a tactical point of view, but considering that at the time the english minority was a) tiny and b) had interests in the old regime, being mostly tied to the multipe trade companies that maintained british trade monopolies over the colonies, from a strategic point of view, knowing that you have someone who can and will win hearts and minds is a good idea).
 
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Eurofed

Banned
1) How would Quebec fit into the union? Would there be a large amount of cultural tensions between it and the rest of the US? Would Quebec seccessionism in the 19th century be a possibility, and is there any chance of Quebec and Southern seccessionists forming some kind of tactical alliance? (ie, they both want to leave the US, but for different reasons).

Quebec would fit in the Union quite cozily after a while. The early US Constitution would have given it an overwhelming amount of autonomy and full civil and political rights for French-speaking Catholic, pretty much all they could wish for. At the Consitutional Convention, its representatives would have lobbied for, and got, clauses that guarantee its church (i.e. no ban for state-established churches) and its language (i.e. ban of a national language), but otherwise, they would have behaved much like the other big states. Politically, they would initially lean towards the other agrarian states of the South. As Middle Canada industrializes and the economic ties with New England, New York, and the MidWest grow, however, it would lean more and more towards the rest of the North. In due time, OTL Quebec would become a Catholic-Romance close copy of New England-New York, and OTL Ontario of the Mid West.

ARW Quebec is very likely to split into OTL Quebec, a Southern Ontario state, and a Northern Ontario state. Canadian states would lobby to have infrastructures built that enhance their ties with the WASP North on one side, and that allow swift colonization of western Canada on the other side, after it becomes US, which is all but inevitable, either by conquest or by peaceful purchase. The British Empire would not have any serious hope of holding onto Rupert's Land and Columbia, military, economically, or demographically, if America holds Middle Canada and the Maritimes and becomes stronger and stronger as time goes by.

Quebec secessionism by the time the ACW becomes likely would be utterly ASB: by that time, Canadian states would have become thoroughly integrated economically and politically within the North, just like the Mid West, and they would have no reason whatsoever to feel any sympathy for the slaveocracy. Montreal would have as many reasons to secede as Chicago.

2) Assuming Quebec doesn't leave, would America's sense of itself be affected by the fact that part of it is very different, culturally and religiously, from the rest of it?

A very likely butterfly is that there would be less prejudice against admitting territories with Catholic-Romance majorities. Hence, it becomes rather more likely that areas like (northern) Mexico, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic are successfully annexed during the 19th century.

3) Where would the loyalists go?

Outside North America entirely. Rupert's Land is far too remote, wild, and strategically unsafe to be a worthwhile resettlement area for them in 1783. They would be resettled in other British colonies: Australia and Ireland are possibilities. Alternatively, or it addition, Britain could pursue the conquest of South Africa and Rio de la Plata earlier and with more efficiency and determination.

And who settles *Ontario in their absence-Quebec or the Anglophone US?

Like the rest of American Canada, it would be settled by a mix of Quebecois, Anglophone settlers, and European immigrants. A west-east gradient is likely, with eastern Canada being more Francophone and western Canada more linguistically mixed. Nonetheless, Francophones would be more spread out than in OTL Canada.

4) Would the various parts of *Canada be tied economically to each other as much as OTL? In particular, would be see anything like the Canadian Pacific railway?

It is quite likely that Middle Canada states successfully lobby for an ATL equivalent of Canadian Pacific railway. To a degree, those lobbies would strive to build up western Canada as part of "their" regional power bloc. However, the various parts of Canada would also integrate with their economic matches south of the OTL border: the Maritimes with New England, Quebec with New Work, Ontario with the Mid West, the prairies and the Rockies, Columbia with Oregon and Washington. It would be a mix of west-east and north-south ties.

5) How would having Canada's resources and population affect the economic and political development of the US?

The ACW would likely occur somewhat earlier, say 5-10 years earlier, but not radically so. The economic and political weight of the free Canadian states would make the South feel cornered earlier. However, before resorting to secession, the South would push ever more forcefully than OTL for agrarian imperialism in Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean. Canadian natural resources and population and the rest of the Union would humor them. This is another reason why presence of Canada would make America bigger southward. Canada would fill up more quickly ITTL, thanks to US immigration policies and more aggressive settlement and its extra resources and ppopulation would make America achieve superpower status somewhat more quickly, but not radically so.
 
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Quebec would fit in the Union quite cozily after a while. The early US Constitution would have given it an overwhelming amount of autonomy and full civil and political rights for French-speaking Catholic, pretty much all they could wish for. At the Consitutional Convention, its representatives would have lobbied for, and got, clauses that guarantee its church (i.e. no ban for state-established churches) and its language (i.e. ban of a national language), but otherwise, they would have behaved much like the other big states. Politically, they would initially lean towards the other agrarian states of the South. As Middle Canada industrializes and the economic ties with New England, New York, and the MidWest grow, however, it would lean more and more towards the rest of the North. In due time, OTL Quebec would become a Catholic-Romance close copy of New England-New York, and OTL Ontario of the Mid West.

I think it would make more sense, to just have them admitted as two states: Upper Canada (Ontario) and Lower Canada (Quebec), unless I have the names backwards. All the other states were admitted with the borders they had as colonies, why not them?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I think it would make more sense, to just have them admitted as two states: Upper Canada (Ontario) and Lower Canada (Quebec), unless I have the names backwards. All the other states were admitted with the borders they had as colonies, why not them?

Because in 1776, what would become Upper Canada was still part of the province of Quebec, with the exception of the (enormous) district of Keewatin that was a hunting district of the Hudson Bay company. It was split off for the same reason as New Brunswick; if you make Canada a state of the US, you butterflied away Ontario. However, the vast majority of Ontario's territory and over half of Quebec's would indeed not be part of the state, it would be like the Virginia Northwest territory: reorganized into a territory (say, Hudson Territory) and later split up in states.

There is however some chance that three of the four districts of western ontario at the time might be separated into their own state; the only problem I have with this is that I have no idea what the limit of french settlement was at the time, having few data on pre 1788, all I know is that when it was opened to loyalist settlement, Upper Canada already had about 80.000 french people.

For a clearer illustration of the situation
- A map of the Canadian Northwest around the settling of Manitoba; obviously it excludes BC which was already a province
So you have the districts of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Athabaska, Assiniboia and Alberta. With a small part of the district of Keewatin, those five became the provinces of Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan; in a situation where they're American they might well end up being their own states; Athabaska's only problem as a state is that it becomes another, slightly more populated, Alaska. The only one I could see being split up is Alberta thanks to its slightly better land and two cities having a pissing contest but I doubt it.
- Keewatin itself is originally Nunavut and all of Northern Ontario, and I'm not sure which district the Abitibi and New Quebec regions were in initially. Along with Yukon and Mackenzie district their overall population is slightly over a million today, partially it's also that the land was only ceded by the crown in the late 19th century and split up between the provinces very late; Abitibi was only added to Quebec in 1898, for example. Given the size of the area but likely to remain low population I figure it might lead to about two states comparable to the Dakotas, but very large; one for Northeastern Ontario (I forgot if it was in Keewatin but it became part of Ontario earlier) and Northern Quebec, one for Nunavut+Nortwestern, the district of Keewatin within the borders I'm 100% certain it had. Likely names: Keewatin and either Hudson, Abitibi or Timiskaming (names that recur on both sides of the Ontario/Quebec border for the region). Northwestern Ontario could be its own state, however.
- British Columbia ended up with three districts IOTL and I suspect it would be at least divided into two states because of its size; Columbia was, of course, a much larger claim area including Oregon, Idaho and Washington, I do suspect a state of Vancouver might still have been founded, although I could see it going both ways with Vancouver being the state of Washington. The other two were Stikine in the far north and New Caledonia in the center. Again, OTL demographics for the region do make me ponder: Stikine has about 100.000 inhabitants today and forms four districts of BC (when one of my profs was doing field work with the athabaskan the region was just barely starting to have white settlers, and it showed, there were huge tensions especially since northern settlement tended to be the same kind of settlers who went to South Africa, with a huge turnover in the settlers; i.e. unscrupulous gold seekers who were essentially the scum of their country going in for a quick buck: this attitude gave use De Beers, the Raj and the spanish empire, a charming bunch :p ); New Caledonia, today, has about 220.000 (or 300) people depending on how south its borders go: it didn't include Vancouver island and the southern districts obviously but I'm not sure for the rest.
 
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Oops. My assumption was based on the wrong map on The Genocide. It appears that Quebec included the OTL Northwest Territory, as well as Ontario.

Maybe Virginia and other states claim parts of the territory, as they did IOTL, and that leads to conflict with Quebec, and then the eventual cessation of that territory to the Federal government? The area beyond the Proclamation Line was very sparsely populated (by white people), so I could see something like that happening. Of course though, Quebec has the original claim to the territory.

What portion of Quebec would become the actual state of Quebec?
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Oops. My assumption was based on the wrong map on The Genocide. It appears that Quebec included the OTL Northwest Territory, as well as Ontario.

Maybe Virginia and other states claim parts of the territory, as they did IOTL, and that leads to conflict with Quebec, and then the eventual cessation of that territory to the Federal government? The area beyond the Proclamation Line was very sparsely populated (by white people), so I could see something like that happening. Of course though, Quebec has the original claim to the territory.

What portion of Quebec would become the actual state of Quebec?

My main problem is that I don't see why the border would be in the same place as OTL Quebec/Ontario, the only conflict over Quebec claims were the actually unsettled lands: mostly lands on the southeastern shore of the Saint-Lawrence, which a few states saw as the border - part of south Ontario, sure, the whole lot? There's already french settlement in the northern part of it and historically the states saw the river as a border. IOTL, when Upper Canada was split off, it was split off with the idea that the province would be just about big enough to have an english majority. IMO, an american Canada is more likely to expand in Ontario and more likely to have another state or two on its south shore between New England and Canada.

For Quebec, the parts of Quebec that were in Rupert's land were Northern-Quebec and Abitibi-Temiscamingue regions. With a 1776 POD, Labrador may end up under Quebec or be part of some nebulous North territory, unless Britain manages to secure claims that far north. I'd set the border with losses in the south east (the sherbrooke region, the regions I'm removing are numbered 5, 8 and 10 on the map) but retaining what would become the Eastern district of Upper Canada, i.e. the Cornwall and Ottawa regions. The rest of Ontario becomes two or three states, with one of them probably keeping the name of one of the lakes. IMO this represents the spread of settlements better at the time, because the region I'm removing to the south east only started settlement when the loyalists moved in (but became french with the arrival of french and irish colonists who tended to assimilate with the french), and the little bit of Ontario I'm keeping already has french people at the time in sufficient number that I can't see it going away without the influx of loyalists. With Labrador and this border swap, the state of Quebec/Canada is still smaller than Texas. If the state of Canada loses the entire south shore and keeps the entirety of southern ontario it's actually a bit smaller (although it might keep the little bit near Montreal because it's already populated). Basically, I'm arguing the borders of this TL's "canadian" states would have been wildly different from OTL Canada.

The regions I suggest would be more likely to be swapped out in addition to what I remove are 1, 11, 12 and 17.
 
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What's cool with an American Canada is that there would most certainly be an American Mexico. States such as Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Ontario, or what ever other Canadian states would definitely be free. Now back in the first half of the 19th century, states were admitted two at a time; one north for one south, one free for one slave.
So the United States would be politically forced to grab a hell of a lot more of Mexico in a practically inevitable Mexican American War. Where there's Ontario, there would be Rio Grande, and so on.
You would even most certainly see a much more fragmented Texas and possibly California, since Sonora and Chihuahua would most likely be very sparsely populated to become states.

Another possibility is more ambition for Cuba.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I'm not sure how it would be forced. If anything, having the entire british colonies and getting rid of HBC might lead to a situation where the people in charge are content with the pacific access they have. It might not butterfly away the filibusters in Texas but it could make the weaker with more settled land to the north (minus California, the lands taken from Mexico have the population of Canada)
 
America would need and equal amount of Slave states to Free states. The most likely solution is Mexico. Cuba could provide one slave state if pursued, but one is not enough.
And a California gold rush can not be butterflied away. Especially when there will be more Americans than OTL already near California when it starts (Oregon Country I bet). It would be flocked by Americans.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
There won't be, settlement in the west started in 1857 for both countries and was due to a gold rush. Also, if there's a state of Canada in 1776, slavery is abolished then and now (and any state taken from Mexico apart from Texas wouldn't have been a slave state): the vote to abolish slavery at the time was only defeated by a vote or two.
 
Are there any actual sources for population concentrations in Quebec, at the time? I'm quite interested in the idea of Quebec being part of the United States, for that TL I had previously ceased production on.
 
What about the slave state/free state balance?

What's cool with an American Canada is that there would most certainly be an American Mexico. States such as Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Ontario, or what ever other Canadian states would definitely be free. Now back in the first half of the 19th century, states were admitted two at a time; one north for one south, one free for one slave.
So the United States would be politically forced to grab a hell of a lot more of Mexico in a practically inevitable Mexican American War. Where there's Ontario, there would be Rio Grande, and so on.
You would even most certainly see a much more fragmented Texas and possibly California, since Sonora and Chihuahua would most likely be very sparsely populated to become states.

Another possibility is more ambition for Cuba.

America would need and equal amount of Slave states to Free states. The most likely solution is Mexico. Cuba could provide one slave state if pursued, but one is not enough.
And a California gold rush can not be butterflied away. Especially when there will be more Americans than OTL already near California when it starts (Oregon Country I bet). It would be flocked by Americans.

Basically, American Cuba and Northern Mexico. Texas may actually be split up.
 
What about the slave state/free state balance?

In 1784, Thomas Jefferson introduced a bill to the Continental Congress that would have banned slavery - it failed by one vote. If Quebec were to be in the U.S., and everything went nearly the same as in OTL, it's possible that the bill could pass, possibly resulting in a breakup of the Union.

I just remembered that royal charters were weird. Massachusetts claimed part of the Northwest Territory that was within it's parallels, as well as claiming part of New York. It's possible that they could make the same claims on Quebec.
 
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