Protect and Survive: A Timeline

[hsthompson]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

As to peat - yes, I believe the Irish burn peat in at least one power station. But you have to build for it - you cant convert an oil station to peat. And you cant run vehicles on it.

AFAIK, as of 1982-83, there's five power stations in the RoI, and all of them away from potential targets. Then again, that's not hard. There's only one potential target.

There is natural gas as from 1979, but I gather only in a very small scale and not enough to cover demand (although I presume since the demand has been drastically smashed -to put it mildly- it might be enough).

Come to think of it, can delivery trucks be converted to gas operation? It might just be the most efficient use of whatever reserves the country has...

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Macragge1

Before I let this all get on top of me


\

Exactly - you've basically outlined with more clarity what I was trying to get at with the idea of the volunteer 'looters' - they're effectively doing the same work as regular looters, but in teams and under armed supervision; the other difference, of course, is that it's all stockpiled rather than finders-keepers.



It's a noble idea, but the authorities these days aren't willing to let people sit doing nothing for 90 minutes - besides this, it'd be hard to find 22 guys (who aren't soldiers or policemen or w/e) well-fed and healthy enough to play a decent game for a prolonged period of time.

I daresay that right now, ITTL, there would be NO organized athletic competition except at the youth level. The babies and toddlers who starved to death ITTL in early 1984 would be what, 26-29 years old now? I would also venture to guess that even if the government reversed that policy at the current point in the timeline, not only do you have a very small pool of adult men and women to begin making babies, those babies also have to overcome disease and radiation.

Assuming more deaths due to radiation, disease and work-related causes, the population of Britain in 2010 will be less than it is in 1984, and will be predominantly older citizens - mid-30s to 60s (at best). And much fewer people from toddlers to early 20s.

Sadly, Newcastle United is going to be the least of people's concerns. And who would want to play on a burial plot anyway?

On an unrelated note: the main networks are headquartered in Dublin. I'm assuming that RTE and other networks have their own equivalent of Wood Norton, and that there was no EMP to knock out electronics so people could still WATCH television.

Come to think of it, Ireland may be the predominant power in the region come 2010...

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by hsthompson

AFAIK, as of 1982-83, there's five power stations in the RoI, and all of them away from potential targets. Then again, that's not hard. There's only one potential target.

There is natural gas as from 1979, but I gather only in a very small scale and not enough to cover demand (although I presume since the demand has been drastically smashed -to put it mildly- it might be enough).

Come to think of it, can delivery trucks be converted to gas operation? It might just be the most efficient use of whatever reserves the country has...

You can convert to gas, but there are a couple of problems. You need to make (or have, I believe Ireland doesnt have any significant gas reserves) the gas, liquify it, distribute it, and make the high-pressure containers for the trucks as well as modifying the engines (thats not terribly difficult). The easy method to produce the gas is from coal..which Ireland doesnt have (I dont think you can get it from peat, although peat will be a useful home fuel source for any house with an open fireplace)

It would basically involve a lot less effort for Ireland to help the UK get oil flowing again. I dont know what the Irish power stations burnt, but I would guess at this point in time oil? In which case, another good reason for getting North Sea oil flowing.


Theres one thing I forgot earlier - long term realpolitic. Ignoring any other reasons, if Ireland helps the mainland in its darkest hour they can reasonably expect this to be remembered with graitude by both the people and government of the UK. While if they just close off, and refuse to do anything to help, that too will be remembered. And given the dangers in the future world, with a power that will still have nuclear weapons, this is not a sensible place to be in.
Even in its weakened state, in a couple of generations (maybe even one) the UK will again be far more powerful than Ireland. So which option makes more sense in the long term...

[Macragge1]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

You can convert to gas, but there are a couple of problems. You need to make (or have, I believe Ireland doesnt have any significant gas reserves) the gas, liquify it, distribute it, and make the high-pressure containers for the trucks as well as modifying the engines (thats not terribly difficult). The easy method to produce the gas is from coal..which Ireland doesnt have (I dont think you can get it from peat, although peat will be a useful home fuel source for any house with an open fireplace)

It would basically involve a lot less effort for Ireland to help the UK get oil flowing again. I dont know what the Irish power stations burnt, but I would guess at this point in time oil? In which case, another good reason for getting North Sea oil flowing.


Theres one thing I forgot earlier - long term realpolitic. Ignoring any other reasons, if Ireland helps the mainland in its darkest hour they can reasonably expect this to be remembered with graitude by both the people and government of the UK. While if they just close off, and refuse to do anything to help, that too will be remembered. And given the dangers in the future world, with a power that will still have nuclear weapons, this is not a sensible place to be in.
Even in its weakened state, in a couple of generations (maybe even one) the UK will again be far more powerful than Ireland. So which option makes more sense in the long term...

The point about realpolitik is very valid - regardless of your feelings about Britain, it's basically an extremely traumatised nation with a fair few atomic weapons - the best bet is to keep it onside at all costs.

[modelcitizen]

Originally Posted by Koenig von Poposia

Wow..what a story! Your family history is fascinating...funny how real life can be more bizarre than some of the stuff that shows up on this forum. Have you ever thought of writing it up? It would make a great book.

thank you!

my father's parents didn't speak English very well, so getting descriptive accounts was generally on the level of what I wrote, give or take. on top of that, sometimes relatives would evade giving details, I'd get information second- or third-hand. I know for example that the only real toy my father and his two brothers had growing up in Israel was a memorable toy fire truck that their father had gotten in France. And why was he in France? to look for any way of finding his sister. he was not successful. this wasn't the kind of stuff my father's father sat down and talked about to the grandkids, so this kind of information was usually relayed indirectly.

hell, I'm not even clear on what our paternal family's last name was before they moved to Israel. In Israel, my father's parents apparently adapted the Hebrew word for "goalie." (שוער aka "Shoer.") And before that? Horowitz, maybe. My father's father had every right to his privacy, of course. He had lost every single relative and had served in both the Soviet Army and then in the Israeli army. This meant that if he felt like keeping something vague and/or to himself, he was amply entitled.



my father's father passed away just over a year ago, and my father's mother is not herself anymore.




(truth is always stranger than fiction )

[Macragge1]

Operation Prospero [5]

On the air America/I modeled shirts by Van Heulen

Our waiting was further interrupted by the arrival of a Swiss helicopter a few days later - on hearing that the crew were distributing food marked with the Swiss flag, Whitelaw ordered us to....

*

He could be anywhere he could be anywhere he could be anywhere.

Marching in a line, heading towards the town. A Union Flag furling and unfurling in a hot and lazy wind - this is not a healthy place. There is no scorching, no jagged edges - at a glance, it is just a road in the country.

Look closer.

The grass is too long - the land is taking the place back. The road is cracking up. Something else. Something else.

No leaves - it's nearly April and there's not one leaf.

The sky is heavy but the atmosphere's worse. The Pilot and the Commando walk side by side, metres apart - neither will turn their backs on the other. The Scientist is right behind the Commando - he's made his choice. The rest keep their distance - shifting eyes behind steamy lenses.

A car sits sulking by the side of the road - two wheels lopsided in a culvert. Empty.

The sky gives way and it's pouring.

Overboots slip and slide through ashen puddles. It's tiring and they're hungry - no eating with a mask. Put one foot ahead of the other and one foot ahead of the other and we'll get through it. No going back at any rate.

The Commando stops. The Pilot stops the next split-second.

'Hear it?'

Shaking heads.

A twig snaps and it hits them like an airburst.

'You boys lost?'

He's there and he's real but they can't take it in. Sheepskin jacket, Stetson, revolver in his holster. He's heavyset and unshaven with his hands on his hips and he's the most beautiful thing they've seen in years.

The team look at each other like guilty schoolboys - the Co-Pilot takes the mantle - 'We're British...we came...we came to find you. We didn't know if there were any of you -'

The American looks at his boots and looks back up.

'Well, boys, I'm the only one left - just me.'

Stomachs sink - the Scientist sits and puts his head in his hands. Absolute vacumn.

Laughter - it starts as a chuckle, but soon the man is slapping his knees, howling.

He laughs for slightly too long.

'I thought you limeys were meant to have a refined sense of humour' - he wipes a little tear from the corner of his eye - 'we got through, some of us. We got through.'

The Commando now - 'Who's in charge?'

'The Lord himself don't know, my man - the president must be somewhere, I suppose - we've been working for the Emperor'.

'What.'

'The Emperor of New Rome - the New York Caesar' - this time he can't do it deadpan - he cracks up on 'Caesar'. 'I'll take you guys to see the boss up in the town - Secretary of the Interior - what's left of it - get you boys some chow and a shower'

They look at him like he's a fucking prophet.

[The Red]

What the hell? Did you just make that ending optimistic?!?!

[JN1]

Hm, methinks that the Swiss are going to regret handing out food marked with their flag on it. In theory it is a threat to the government's rather shaky authority. Food is the new currency and we can't have someone interfering with that.

Nice to see our American cousins seem to have maintained a sense of humor in adversity. Bit of a contrast to the grimness of the UK.

[hsthompson]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

You can convert to gas, but there are a couple of problems. You need to make (or have, I believe Ireland doesnt have any significant gas reserves) the gas, liquify it, distribute it, and make the high-pressure containers for the trucks as well as modifying the engines (thats not terribly difficult). The easy method to produce the gas is from coal..which Ireland doesnt have (I dont think you can get it from peat, although peat will be a useful home fuel source for any house with an open fireplace)

From what I'm wrong, LPG conversions were very popular in the 70s and 80s when Ireland was not well off and petrol prices were relatively high. It was only when companies used the increased demand to raise prices that it did fall in popularity.

In 1982 or thereabouts many if not most houses would indeed have a fireplace.

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

It would basically involve a lot less effort for Ireland to help the UK get oil flowing again. I dont know what the Irish power stations burnt, but I would guess at this point in time oil? In which case, another good reason for getting North Sea oil flowing.

My bad there. If I made mention of the power stations before it is because they all burn peat, and they are situated relatively close to the bogs.

It doesn't change the reality that oil is the lifeblood of industry, and that it is indeed in the best interests of Ireland to help the UK get back on its feet. One good turn deserves another...

[Lemon flavoured]

As long as Whitelaw didn't order them to nuke Bern or Zurich or anything like that...

Our American friend does indeed seem interesting.

[modelcitizen]

wow


sweeet


pity about the trees


hope Stetson-man isn't inhaling massively fatal doses of radiation


let the ----ing Swiss have their flags, I say, be grateful, but sovereignty and control will have their way... I hope the Swiss take it in stride, "hell, it's a gift, tear the label off if you like"

[altamiro]

Originally Posted by modelcitizen

let the ----ing Swiss have their flags, I say, be grateful, but sovereignty and control will have their way... I hope the Swiss take it in stride, "hell, it's a gift, tear the label off if you like"

I think what Whitelaw is afraid of is people questioning their ability to govern. "If the Swiss can get over fod from 1500 km away, why can't our government?". They probably won't bother with explanation that it might be because the Swiss haven't been nuked...

[thevaliant]

Originally Posted by Macragge1

Operation Prospero [5]

'The Emperor of New Rome - the New York Caesar' - this time he can't do it deadpan - he cracks up on 'Caesar'. 'I'll take you guys to see the boss up in the town - Secretary of the Interior - what's left of it - get you boys some chow and a shower'

Secretary of the Interior - Is this Donald P. Hodel then? Or merely some guy calling himself Secretary of the Interior?

[Baron Bizarre]

Originally Posted by The Red

What the hell? Did you just make that ending optimistic?!?!

I wonder...

[Mario Rossi]

Good update, as always.

And as always a bit of question time (not only for Macragge1, I am interested in the views of all)

On the one hand it seems hard to believe that Switzerland has not been affected by the Soviet attack (I imagine that in a situation such as that of the Exchange both parties have tried to settle outstanding accounts up to Ancient Egypt) on the other side if the Swiss were able to dodge the war even this time, why risk people and resources through a France devastated by the missiles of the Warsaw Pact? Other ideas?

Between the pilot and the Commando is definitely going up the tension: it is "only" the grueling stress, or both have a hidden agenda?

The American is a joker or is crazy like a horse? Why he does not have a radiation protection suit in an environment where the roentgen meter was a buzzer drive?

What happened to the U.S. President?

[John Farson]

Originally Posted by Mario Rossi

Good update, as always.

And as always a bit of question time (not only for Macragge1, I am interested in the views of all)

On the one hand it seems hard to believe that Switzerland has not been affected by the Soviet attack (I imagine that in a situation such as that of the Exchange both parties have tried to settle outstanding accounts up to Ancient Egypt) on the other side if the Swiss were able to dodge the war even this time, why risk people and resources through a France devastated by the missiles of the Warsaw Pact? Other ideas?

Between the pilot and the Commando is definitely going up the tension: it is "only" the grueling stress, or both have a hidden agenda?

The American is a joker or is crazy like a horse? Why he does not have a radiation protection suit in an environment where the roentgen meter was a buzzer drive?

What happened to the U.S. President?

That reminds me of something. Would the US have used the "opportunity" of all-out nuclear war to turn Vietnam into a glow-in-the-dark parking lot in revenge for the Vietnam War? Even without the "revenge" angle, I still expect Vietnam to have been heavily nuked both by the Americans as well as the Chinese, since it was a key Soviet ally at the time.

Likewise, what's the situation in Afghanistan? Have the Soviet occupation forces been nuked by the US?

[Lemon flavoured]

Originally Posted by Mario Rossi

What happened to the U.S. President?

Well the cowboy guy said "the president must be somewhere, I suppose" so maybe he's still alive. Just not really in effective control.

[Nekromans]

Originally Posted by Lemon flavoured

Well the cowboy guy said "the president must be somewhere, I suppose" so maybe he's still alive. Just not really in effective control.

He said that when he was on his Caesar of New York schtick, though, so it might not be true.

[Mario Rossi]

Originally Posted by Lemon flavoured

Well the cowboy guy said "the president must be somewhere, I suppose" so maybe he's still alive. Just not really in effective control.

Mutinies or just bad communications? (We're only makin' hypothesis...)

[Mario Rossi]

Originally Posted by Nekromans

He said that when he was on his Caesar of New York schtick, though, so it might not be true.

Not another Charles-Manson-for-President, please...