Protect and Survive: A Timeline

[Wolf]

One big difference between the UK and US you will have to consider is the tradition of local governments having power. That means in a lot of places the de facto authority will be the governor of the state or whoever is next in line and survives. (I am assuming that the Soviets hit most if not all the state capitals. Which would kill most of the Governors and the successors and a good number of state legislators)

In some places mayors or county sheriffs could possibly be in charge. Theoretically in surviving areas of New England town councils might be ruling as there has been some sort of tradition of town meetings there a la Nantucket in ISOT.

And besides in some parts of the country people are either really isolated even in the best of times here in 2010. And in many parts of America the Federal Government isn't too popular to begin with, so I only can imagine how low the opinion of the Feds sinks after a nuclear attack.

Furthermore the majority of our ICBM fields were located on the Great Plains, where a lot of food is grown along with several of our important B-52 bases. So some of our best farmland is radioactive or is covered in radioactive dust. Our oil fields in Texas and Alaska are most likely still burning. Our coal producing regions are saturated with fallout.

Another huge factor would be all the heavily armed anti-government survivalists who could see their ranks swell if they control the local food supplies in certain areas. As you have already demonstrated desperate hungry people will do almost anything for a meal.

[Lemon flavoured]

Originally Posted by Wolf

Another huge factor would be all the heavily armed anti-government survivalists who could see their ranks swell if they control the local food supplies in certain areas. As you have already demonstrated desperate hungry people will do almost anything for a meal.

Yeah, as I said, there are probably at least one or two de facto nations run by those groups. The big problem for any US state or federal government that remains is how the hell do you deal with those groups?

[darkblue1893]

Originally Posted by Lemon flavoured

Yeah, as I said, there are probably at least one or two de facto nations run by those groups. The big problem for any US state or federal government that remains is how the hell do you deal with those groups?

Well they can copy the British governments policy, which seems to be to kill every man, woman and child that opposes there rule.

[Lemon flavoured]

Originally Posted by darkblue1893

Well they can copy the British governments policy, which seems to be to kill every man, woman and child that opposes there rule.

A few hundred people armed with rifles (at the very least, remember that in some places in the US grenades and even AA guns are legal (or at least least were before the war in this TL)) is quite different to a group of villagers with 5 shotguns and a .22 rifle between them.

[Macragge1]

Originally Posted by Lemon flavoured

A few hundred people armed with rifles (at the very least, remember that in some places in the US grenades and even AA guns are legal (or at least least were before the war in this TL)) is quite different to a group of villagers with 5 shotguns and a .22 rifle between them.

Well, to be fair to the Felton villagers they managed to steal some old .303s, a couple of Stens and a Bren from a convoy but yeah - your point is absolutely right.

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by Lemon flavoured

A few hundred people armed with rifles (at the very least, remember that in some places in the US grenades and even AA guns are legal (or at least least were before the war in this TL)) is quite different to a group of villagers with 5 shotguns and a .22 rifle between them.

A number of these survivalists are ex-military or veterans. Many of them will be heavily armed with everything from .22 rifles and the 30-06 to M-16s to M-1's from WWII vets.

At most there will be only a shell of the Regular Army left as a lot of them would have been deployed to Germany and the rest of NATO Europe during Reforger during the buildup to the conflict. And the ones that remained in the US would have been wiped out when their bases were destroyed. Most of the remaining members of the Army would be National Guardsmen, some of whom would not have combat experience.

[Lemon flavoured]

Originally Posted by Wolf

A number of these survivalists are ex-military or veterans. Many of them will be heavily armed with everything from .22 rifles and the 30-06 to M-16s to M-1's from WWII vets.

At most there will be only a shell of the Regular Army left as a lot of them would have been deployed to Germany and the rest of NATO Europe during Reforger during the buildup to the conflict. And the ones that remained in the US would have been wiped out when their bases were destroyed. Most of the remaining members of the Army would be National Guardsmen, some of whom would not have combat experience.

Exactly, and bear in mind a number of the survivalist groups like that have been around for years, so have had plenty of time to fortify / prepare the places they are using as a base.

[butch4343]

Macragge1 Ill start by saying this again this is the best time line I have ever read on this board, I am loving the prospero updates, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions surrounding that operation if I may?

Firstly your choice of aircraft in the victor, was it poetic liecence that led you to the type?

The reason I ask is I was thinking that the VC10 may have been a better choice in terms of range and payload , the VC10 having a range somewhere in the region of 5950 miles, this would have let you cross the pond in one hop and return, just, but given that the RAFs VC10 were hybrid tankers so they could have probably flown further , and carried a bigger team to the states.

My second question centres round this as well, did you consider using air to air refuelling to allow Caliban to fly further on its journey, or did you specifically want for the purposes want to land in Iceland?

I was also wondering if you are able to provide a run down on what assets the RN and the RAF have left and where they are on the globe?

I am absolutley loving the story line so these arent criticisms , just curious questions.

And please, please , please keep up the writing

[Macragge1]

Originally Posted by butch4343

Macragge1 Ill start by saying this again this is the best time line I have ever read on this board, I am loving the prospero updates, I wanted to ask you a couple of questions surrounding that operation if I may?

Firstly your choice of aircraft in the victor, was it poetic liecence that led you to the type?

The reason I ask is I was thinking that the VC10 may have been a better choice in terms of range and payload , the VC10 having a range somewhere in the region of 5950 miles, this would have let you cross the pond in one hop and return, just, but given that the RAFs VC10 were hybrid tankers so they could have probably flown further , and carried a bigger team to the states.

Part of the reason is poetic license - the Victor's a hell of a plane, and by sending it on a 'rescue mission' i thought it would be a nice 'swords into ploughshares' sort of thing that also allowed me to explore what the V-forces' pilots are feeling like right now (those that survived)

In-story, the reasoning is simply that Prospero was an extremely ad-hoc mission brought together very quickly - a lot of the RAF's VC10s were caught in or en route to Germany where they were ferrying troops in and civilians out of the BAOR zones. Those that remain are either in a poor state of maintenance (they naturally haven't been a resource priority after the attack) or dispersed too far away - Ascenscion, the Falklands etc.

Originally Posted by butch4343

My second question centres round this as well, did you consider using air to air refuelling to allow Caliban to fly further on its journey, or did you specifically want for the purposes want to land in Iceland?

I was also wondering if you are able to provide a run down on what assets the RN and the RAF have left and where they are on the globe?

I am absolutley loving the story line so these arent criticisms , just curious questions.

And please, please , please keep up the writing

Same justification for where all the air-to-air refuellers are. From a story point of view, the fact that a small team is crammed into this plane makes it easier to have a few more interesting characters rather than say, a whole platoon of more faceless soldiers.

There'll be a rundown on assets at some point.

Thanks for the compliments and thanks for letting me address these points.

[Wolf]

Originally Posted by Lemon flavoured

Exactly, and bear in mind a number of the survivalist groups like that have been around for years, so have had plenty of time to fortify / prepare the places they are using as a base.

And if the NG et al is not expecting it casualties could be bad. And besides fortifications could easily be beefed up using refugee slave labour if they are promised a meal and shelter. When the alternative is certain death work with a gun to your back doesn't look so bad by comparison.

[Jukra]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Of the 'western' countries I'd expect Canada, Australia and NZ to be in the best state, as far as the survivors are concerned. Large, so while cities and military bases get nuked, the fallout covers a relatively small percentage of the land, able to feed themselves.

Finland would be quite "well" off, given that most damage would come from fallout and in 1980's Finland had extremely large reserve stocks of fuel and food combined with the fact that urban population had fallout shelters available. In 1988 the reserve stocks for all products were sufficient to guarantee normal state of living - without any imports or restrictions - for a six months. In case of coal, the reserve stocks were for 15 months with full level of use, in case of medical products 16 months of full use.

In addition, plans for alternate poroduction were fairly advanced. In case of energy the Finnish forestry industries would be more than able to replace all imports of coal for an indefinite period of time and probably could start (economically inefficient) production of biofuels enough for most critical military and logistics use before oil stocks would run out. For nuclear fuel (4 reactors) there was sufficient reserve fuel for couple of years at stock.

In case of feeding the population there were reserve stocks of food for a period of more than a year. After one year the the lack of potassium would cut the harvests for 15%. This effect could be canceled by cultivating more fields than during peacetime (approximately 10% of field area was kept as crisis time reserve and could be taken into use immediately) and by decreasing amount of meat and poultry production. Finland during 1980's, like rest of the industrial world, suffered rather from a overweight than malnutrition which should be also taken into account. Fisheries, berries, mushroom picking etc. would also significantly add into nutrition of Finnish population thanks for large scale land area available per population and the tendency of population to use all of these as a popular form of recreation.

The period of attack - February - is the best possible time of year for the attack from Finnish perspective. Fallout ash will be falling in over a layer of snow, meaning it will decay for a few months before melting down. In case of nuclear weapons destined for Finnish targets (which would include, I'd guess, refineries in Naantali and Loviisa) the snow cover will eliminate flash damage, reduce heat damage and prevent any large scale fires spreading outside refinery areas.

So, to cut it short, it might be that Finland would be best off of all the countries in Northern Hemisphere. A nuclear attack on Helsinki, the capital city, would change this somewhat but would be manageable thanks to ample reserve housing available, sturdy construction of Finnish housing and well spread infrastructure and finally by time of the year.

Only threat of British nuclear deterrence would keep Finns from dominating the Western Europe

[Tovarich]

Originally Posted by JN1

The Today Programme: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/default.stm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Today_(BBC_Radio_4). Some people are sceptical about the claim that the programme has a place in the nuclear deterrent.

Heh, having been a scared-crapless-of-nukes teenager in East Anglia at the time of this TL, I cannot help by now finding the idea of the Today Programme as a nuclear-alert rather amusing

"....and now it's 8.45 and time for Thought For The Day, with Rabbi Lionel Blue.

Thank you Brian, Thank you Sue......OH MY GOD! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!! Help us, Invisible Magic Friend!!!"


(Erm, none of the above probably any referential sense to people who aren't both British and at least as old as I am (very old)

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by Macragge1

The key reason for my postulation that there's no communications coming out of America is, in honesty, as much out of poetic license as anything. If, in the narrative, there were communications between the two powers, I'd have an excuse to simply type out a telex-style list of city names and casualty figures - the idea of the Prospero storyline was to inject a sort of darker Boys' Own style adventure to counteract the main narrative which is fairly centred upon the North East Region of England. The vagueness also allowed for a bit of stalling on my part which let me keep the momentum up whilst brushing up on American defense plans etc which hopefully will make that part of the story more exciting.

It's entirely the fault of my vagueness that I've led you to believe that there's no governmental authority in the USA - I can assure you now that that isn't the case - the country has been very, very badly damaged, as has Britain, but its status is closer to Britain's in Protect and Survive than Planet of the Apes. The differences will come mostly thanks to the vast, vast size of the USA compared to our tiny island and how planners over there planned to deal with such a crisis.

Again, thanks for bringing those issues up and letting me try and explain a bit about how my TL's panning out as it is.

Thanks for the clarifications. Poetic license is fine to me, and I was mostly concerned about, as you succinctly put it, a Planet of the Apes United States when we still had a Protect and Survive Britain.

[Philadelphus]

Originally Posted by Tovarich

Heh, having been a scared-crapless-of-nukes teenager in East Anglia at the time of this TL, I cannot help by now finding the idea of the Today Programme as a nuclear-alert rather amusing

"....and now it's 8.45 and time for Thought For The Day, with Rabbi Lionel Blue.

Thank you Brian, Thank you Sue......OH MY GOD! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!! Help us, Invisible Magic Friend!!!"


(Erm, none of the above probably any referential sense to people who aren't both British and at least as old as I am (very old)

"Very old"? I turned 20 during this time line, so I'm older than you. And I do not consider myself "old," let alone "very," thank you!
Hmph.
Although perhaps by the standards of this forum....

[Tovarich]

Originally Posted by Philadelphus

"Very old"? I turned 20 during this time line, so I'm older than you. And I do not consider myself "old," let alone "very," thank you!
Hmph.
Although perhaps by the standards of this forum....

Heh, that's exactly what I meant, Phil

I never cease to be amazed/disturbed at how many of the top writers and most perceptive posters on here are still in their teens or early twenties!

[Tovarich]

Originally Posted by Lemon flavoured

Nice to see that John Peel survived, he does seem like the kind of person who would have volunteered for such a thing. Not really sure what else to add, except I perhaps shouldn't read this TL at gone midnight on a Friday night.

Who says he volunteered?

Though if this TL had been R/L, John Peel would probaby be glowing dust, along with the rest of us in East Anglia, and the post-appocalyptic 1980s UK would more likely have just continual 'Wake Up To Wogan' as a morale builder....never would the cliche of "the living shall envy the dead" have been so true.....although 'Wish You Were Dead With Wogan' is pretty good for an alliterative programme title.

[Lemon flavoured]

Originally Posted by Tovarich

'Wish You Were Dead With Wogan' is pretty good for an alliterative programme title.

And to continue the Peel theme, it sounds like the title of an album by The Fall...

[Mario Rossi]

Originally Posted by Jukra

Finland would be quite "well" off, given that most damage would come from fallout and in 1980's Finland had extremely large reserve stocks of fuel and food combined with the fact that urban population had fallout shelters available. In 1988 the reserve stocks for all products were sufficient to guarantee normal state of living - without any imports or restrictions - for a six months. In case of coal, the reserve stocks were for 15 months with full level of use, in case of medical products 16 months of full use.

In addition, plans for alternate poroduction were fairly advanced. In case of energy the Finnish forestry industries would be more than able to replace all imports of coal for an indefinite period of time and probably could start (economically inefficient) production of biofuels enough for most critical military and logistics use before oil stocks would run out. For nuclear fuel (4 reactors) there was sufficient reserve fuel for couple of years at stock.

In case of feeding the population there were reserve stocks of food for a period of more than a year. After one year the the lack of potassium would cut the harvests for 15%. This effect could be canceled by cultivating more fields than during peacetime (approximately 10% of field area was kept as crisis time reserve and could be taken into use immediately) and by decreasing amount of meat and poultry production. Finland during 1980's, like rest of the industrial world, suffered rather from a overweight than malnutrition which should be also taken into account. Fisheries, berries, mushroom picking etc. would also significantly add into nutrition of Finnish population thanks for large scale land area available per population and the tendency of population to use all of these as a popular form of recreation.

The period of attack - February - is the best possible time of year for the attack from Finnish perspective. Fallout ash will be falling in over a layer of snow, meaning it will decay for a few months before melting down. In case of nuclear weapons destined for Finnish targets (which would include, I'd guess, refineries in Naantali and Loviisa) the snow cover will eliminate flash damage, reduce heat damage and prevent any large scale fires spreading outside refinery areas.

So, to cut it short, it might be that Finland would be best off of all the countries in Northern Hemisphere. A nuclear attack on Helsinki, the capital city, would change this somewhat but would be manageable thanks to ample reserve housing available, sturdy construction of Finnish housing and well spread infrastructure and finally by time of the year.

Only threat of British nuclear deterrence would keep Finns from dominating the Western Europe

Impressive, really.

This leads me to wonder, therefore, if the Soviets have not decided to set aside more "attention" to its neighbors, knowing that such a careful preparation for war had been put in place by the Finns.

[Tovarich]

Originally Posted by Pavlovs_Cat

.....This is a fabulously evocative TL and irrelevant talk of our favourite voice can only detract from the atmosphere that has been created.

Don't worry, NOTHING any of us post, however cheery or trivial, will have the slightest effect on the atmosphere of Mac's thread.....not after the "babies don't work" line regarding food-allocation (I feel I speak for all parents here!)....I salute the author for his ability!

[JN1]

Originally Posted by Mario Rossi

No doubt about it, Jan...BTW and OT when we will see an update in TLW?

I'm working on it now. It may be a while yet, though.

The Soviets probably used Finland as a short cut to reach Norway. The Finns will have resisted and the Soviets will in likelihood launched an invasion of the south of the country.
When tac nukes started to fly in Germany the Soviets probably used them in Finland.