Protect and Survive: A Timeline

[JN1]

I've seen the film. It's a rare beast - a film better than the source book. However in the novel the pilots are not lovers and comments on how unlikely it would be.

The film's BUFF crew would definitely fail under the SAC PRP.

IMVHO New Zealand would certainly get at least two or three bombs. It's an ally of the West and the USSR would see it as a potential enemy.

[Macragge1]

Originally Posted by JN1

I've seen the film. It's a rare beast - a film better than the source book. However in the novel the pilots are not lovers and comments on how unlikely it would be.

The film's BUFF crew would definitely fail under the SAC PRP.

IMVHO New Zealand would certainly get at least two or three bombs. It's an ally of the West and the USSR would see it as a potential enemy.

I definitely agree on NZ - with the amount of bombs the Soviets have, it's unlikely they wouldn't set aside a tiny proportion to do a huge amount of damage to a Western ally.

I only realised halfway through By Dawn's Early Light that Powers Booth was the F-15 pilot from Red Dawn - full on 'ahhhhhhh' moment; I could picture him in the same flightsuit with that voice but it just wouldn't come together.

Just realised that my whole ruined coastal areas thing's probably been influenced by The Last Ship (anyone read it?) - the description of the fallout victims in Italy is truly stomach churning - it was no surprise when I read that Brinkley was a manic-depressive who later took his own life.

[Emperor-of-New-Zealand]

Originally Posted by JN1

IMVHO New Zealand would certainly get at least two or three bombs. It's an ally of the West and the USSR would see it as a potential enemy.

I feel like I should say something witty, but you're not wrong.

[Wolf]

Amazing and chilling tl I will definitely follow it.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Macragge1

Some have dissented - sadly, they've been told that if they don't follow their orders, they themselves will be shot.

It's not so much evil as absolute, pure desperation - the Army genuinely believes that if they lose so much as an iota of control, anarchy will completely overtake the country and every single man, woman and child will starve to death. It's an extreme view, but these are extreme times unfortunately. You're absolutely right about it being depressing, but these days have damaged everyone very, very badly. The view is that the Felton villagers brought it upon themselves by resisting a legitimate movement of desperate refugees.

The soldiers aren't bad people, necessarily - simply decent people driven to terrible ends by desperate leaders in horrible times.

True. War will screw up most anyone to a point, really.

Originally Posted by Macragge1

A couple of them might have handguns, but how many bullets they have, and how well they can aim under pressure is another story.

For all we know, some or all of the surviving crew were forced to wander into the wastes to find some help (considering the nearest settlement for miles took a bomb)


Nowhere on Earth has been unaffected by the war - some have been undamaged, but the very fabric of the world economy has been torn to pieces - countries are scrambling for self-sufficiency and security - this has its costs.

EDIT: Anyone seen By Dawn's Early Light? - Decent WWIII film, if a bit egregious at times - a B-52 crew (which apparently consists of two lovers and the rest are psychopaths) dropping an H-bomb in order to defeat some Foxbats behind them...

'By Dawn's Early Light' is a favorite of mine.

[Lemon flavoured]

You get the impression that the only kind of people who wont be directly affected are people like hidden Amazon tribes and the like =/

[RPW@Cy]

Originally Posted by JN1

IMVHO New Zealand would certainly get at least two or three bombs. It's an ally of the West and the USSR would see it as a potential enemy.

At the risk of sounding like Steve Stirling, I would have thought the most likely targets for any NZ-bound bombs would be Auckland and Wellington, it's possible that South Island might escape. yes, they'd have to deal with refugees from the north, but if there's one thing NZ isn't short of it's food.

By the same logic (and again sounding like SMS...) but Tasmania is likely to be okay too, even if the mainland does take a few hits.

What about central America? I can see Panama getting hit with something big to close the canal, but would the Soviets really waste a bomb on the likes of Costa Rica or Guatemala?

[Lemon flavoured]

Originally Posted by RPW@Cy

What about central America? I can see Panama getting hit with something big to close the canal, but would the Soviets really waste a bomb on the likes of Costa Rica or Guatemala?

Well, someone aimed at something in the South Atlantic. Whether it was the UK at Buenos Aires or Russia at the Falklands no-one knows...

[Macragge1]

The Panama Canal has been hit by two large bombs.

[Mario Rossi]

I'm starting to be afraid to mention even the most remote corner of the world because I am afraid that Macragge1 should inform me that someone has seen fit to hit there as well with a few megatons

[JN1]

There were more than enough nuclear weapons in existence in the early to mid '80s for both sides to spare a few to use on minor countries. It was once observed on TBO.us that the Soviets planned to hit at the very least the capital cities of pretty much everybody.
I doubt any country has gotten off scott free.

[Mario Rossi]

Originally Posted by JN1

There were more than enough nuclear weapons in existence in the early to mid '80s for both sides to spare a few to use on minor countries. It was once observed on TBO.us that the Soviets planned to hit at the very least the capital cities of pretty much everybody.
I doubt any country has gotten off scott free.

No doubt about it, Jan...BTW and OT when we will see an update in TLW?

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by JN1

There were more than enough nuclear weapons in existence in the early to mid '80s for both sides to spare a few to use on minor countries. It was once observed on TBO.us that the Soviets planned to hit at the very least the capital cities of pretty much everybody.
I doubt any country has gotten off scott free.

Indeed, its actually logical.
For example,. hit the South American countries with a few each, that way they are concentrating on looking after themselves rather than helping the USA (which would have been likely if they'd been left untouched). Similarly, make sure any country even close to you is nuked so they wont come and do something to you when your busy recovering.

By MAD standards, its logical. After all, the USSR has more than enough weapons. And even the USA is going to spare some for regimes that are currently anti-america. The Middle east isnt going to be pretty.

Of the 'western' countries I'd expect Canada, Australia and NZ to be in the best state, as far as the survivors are concerned. Large, so while cities and military bases get nuked, the fallout covers a relatively small percentage of the land, able to feed themselves. The rural populations will be in pretty good shape (and while its heading into winter in the SH, at least there are plenty of sheep to eat ). They are so spread out, the rural areas are more used to looking after themselves than in places like Europe. The biggest problem is likely to be transport between the rural areas - supplies of aviation fuel will be an issue, as will petrol and diesel for trucks.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by Macragge1

Just realised that my whole ruined coastal areas thing's probably been influenced by The Last Ship (anyone read it?) - the description of the fallout victims in Italy is truly stomach churning - it was no surprise when I read that Brinkley was a manic-depressive who later took his own life.

While I like a lot of your story as you tell it, I couldn't put my finger on what was bugging me. You've managed to put my finger on it...The Last Ship was terrible about handwaving the annihilation of people on the US East Coast (even in a worst case scenario people would be able to survive), and was horrendous in its technical accuracy. For instance, it described Oscar-class submarines as carrying ICBMs tipped with MIRVs.

One thing you need to consider is that though the USSR had a lot of warheads, it does not have the capability of putting all of those warheads onto targets anywhere in the world. The idea that the UK would function in the manner you have suggested while the United States would completely lack governmental authority (though you haven't necessarily stated that, there's a complete lack of communication which implies the same) despite having a vastly greater surface area and a lower number of targetable warheads capable of being assigned to it (a few thousand is nothing to sneeze at, but results in less "carpeting" than in Britain) is ultimately a huge "meh" considering how interesting your discussion of the war's effect on Great Britain is.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Douglas

While I like a lot of your story as you tell it, I couldn't put my finger on what was bugging me. You've managed to put my finger on it...The Last Ship was terrible about handwaving the annihilation of people on the US East Coast (even in a worst case scenario people would be able to survive), and was horrendous in its technical accuracy. For instance, it described Oscar-class submarines as carrying ICBMs tipped with MIRVs.

One thing you need to consider is that though the USSR had a lot of warheads, it does not have the capability of putting all of those warheads onto targets anywhere in the world. The idea that the UK would function in the manner you have suggested while the United States would completely lack governmental authority (though you haven't necessarily stated that, there's a complete lack of communication which implies the same) despite having a vastly greater surface area and a lower number of targetable warheads capable of being assigned to it (a few thousand is nothing to sneeze at, but results in less "carpeting" than in Britain) is ultimately a huge "meh" considering how interesting your discussion of the war's effect on Great Britain is.

One thing that would be different with the US is the huge amount of fallout caused by ground or even subsurface blasts. With a few exceptions, attacks on the UK would be airbursts - there simply arent that many big hard targets that need more.
The US is different - just the missile fields will require a lot of surface bursts, and it has a lot more deep haredened targets. So there will be a LOT more radioactive dust in the air after, and all that fallout from the missile fields is likely to dump in the East.

[Philadelphus]

Originally Posted by Mario Rossi

I'm starting to be afraid to mention even the most remote corner of the world because I am afraid that Macragge1 should inform me that someone has seen fit to hit there as well with a few megatons

He's probably making it up as he goes along: Ask him if East Podunk, Wyoming, has been hit and he'll decide it has. :-)

[Macragge1]

Originally Posted by Douglas

One thing you need to consider is that though the USSR had a lot of warheads, it does not have the capability of putting all of those warheads onto targets anywhere in the world. The idea that the UK would function in the manner you have suggested while the United States would completely lack governmental authority (though you haven't necessarily stated that, there's a complete lack of communication which implies the same) despite having a vastly greater surface area and a lower number of targetable warheads capable of being assigned to it (a few thousand is nothing to sneeze at, but results in less "carpeting" than in Britain) is ultimately a huge "meh" considering how interesting your discussion of the war's effect on Great Britain is.

Thanks for the comments;

I've definitely exercised a lot of vagueness with regards to the Continental US - a lot of this stems from the fact that, when I started this timeline, I literally expected to write one line about the country having been 'effectively wiped out'. Given the amount of interest in how America had got on (something that I should have prepared for given the amount of Americans on the board), I sort of decided to work in the American story around the British one.

The key reason for my postulation that there's no communications coming out of America is, in honesty, as much out of poetic license as anything. If, in the narrative, there were communications between the two powers, I'd have an excuse to simply type out a telex-style list of city names and casualty figures - the idea of the Prospero storyline was to inject a sort of darker Boys' Own style adventure to counteract the main narrative which is fairly centred upon the North East Region of England. The vagueness also allowed for a bit of stalling on my part which let me keep the momentum up whilst brushing up on American defense plans etc which hopefully will make that part of the story more exciting.

It's entirely the fault of my vagueness that I've led you to believe that there's no governmental authority in the USA - I can assure you now that that isn't the case - the country has been very, very badly damaged, as has Britain, but its status is closer to Britain's in Protect and Survive than Planet of the Apes. The differences will come mostly thanks to the vast, vast size of the USA compared to our tiny island and how planners over there planned to deal with such a crisis.

Again, thanks for bringing those issues up and letting me try and explain a bit about how my TL's panning out as it is.

[Macragge1]

Originally Posted by Philadelphus

He's probably making it up as he goes along: Ask him if East Podunk, Wyoming, has been hit and he'll decide it has. :-)

That's half the fun of it

[Baron Bizarre]

Originally Posted by Macragge1

Thanks for the comments;

the country has been very, very badly damaged, as has Britain, but its status is closer to Britain's in Protect and Survive than Planet of the Apes.

So, no angry gorillas?

[Lemon flavoured]

The thing about America as well is that while there will be a government, and it will have some control, there are presumably going to be some non-government groups that have de facto control over small areas. I'm thinking of survivalist cults and the like. How long these small de facto states last is interesting to me.