Protect and Survive: A Timeline

[modelcitizen]

am listening to audio book of "American Prometheus: The Triumph and Tragedy of J. Robert Oppenheimer," it's quite good, and it nicely matches with appreciation of this thread.

I was very impressed by this quote of President Eisenhower admonishing a panel of hawkish advisors:


"You can't have this kind of war. There just won't be enough bulldozers to scrape the bodies off the streets."




I listened to that quote about four or five times

[ivfl]

I'm noticing not that much talk about fallout in this timeline.While airbursts cause little fallout there would have been more than enough groundbursts to cause long term problems.Fallout would be affecting many regions not directly hit southern Sweden for example would be in direct range from strikes in Denmark and northern Germany poor Malmo is not even 15 km from Copenhagen a city with multiple strikes including one or two groundbursts.There would be many other places with a similar problem.

[Sarastro42]

Greetings all. I have been a long lurker upon these forums, given my significant interest is all things alternate historical. While I appreciate the efforts of many persons on this forum, (I count my own unposted efforts at alt-history in this), I very often find their efforts underwhelming. However, I have recently discovered this thread/timeline. It has been a long time since I such an emotionally meaningful series/timeline. My compliments to Macragge. You have a poet's talent and a novelist's ambition. Cheers mate for creating such a wonderful and horrifying timeline. I eagerly await you next update. Hope that all and that the writing goes well. Cheers!

[nijntjepluis]

Hi everyone!

First off: Macragge, good writing, this. Wonderfully dystopian but not completely unsurvivable, very human. Love it.

Secondly, if I may, returning to the "Babies don't work"-thing. It got me interested. My own son's 9 months old, so... I told my wife about this thread, and about the babies. I had to tell someone, to loose the dirty feeling if you know what I mean.

She replied that this would be no problem. The situation back in the day (when they still burnt witches) or in Africa today is about the same - not enough food - but children are kept alive by breast-feeding.

Apparently about 60% of women would be able to breast-feed their children until the age of (about) six, at which point they can start earning their own food. Seems to be a hormonal response to an adverse situation.
Somali or Eritrean women also get too few calories, but they manage. Might have twenty kids each, of which 16 die - but four still survive.

Her reaction (and by now I asked other mothers) makes me feel women would go into a sort of grim, determined "Oh, we'll repopulate the planet, then...". Won't be pretty but the net result would, we feel, be more than zero children. And that's a good thing.

So my wife surprised me again by stating she would't mind the gouvernment not feeding our baby - she would understand their predicament and feed him (them) herself.


(On a secondary note, watched 'Threads' again yesterday - alone, in the dark. It's a horrible movie but one that can really make me feel happy - it shows me things can always be worse. Put things in a perspective...)


greetings,
Nijn
the Netherlands

[Weaver]

That would never work.

A starving mother has no milk.

From the records of the Nazi camps it is clear...milk fails...even menstruation fails when nutrition for the mother falls below certain levels.

[nijntjepluis]

Originally Posted by Weaver

That would never work.

A starving mother has no milk.

From the records of the Nazi camps it is clear...milk fails...even menstruation fails when nutrition for the mother falls below certain levels.

Well, that's true. Fact is, though, there are still kids in Africa, notwithstanding droughts, famines, wars, AIDS and what else.

A working "V" mother (allotted, say, 1200 calories) *will* have milk. I mean, Nazi camp inmates were deliberately starved, beaten and generally maltreated and in this scenario, the Controller wants to keep them alive. Big difference.

By the way, several of the mothers I know personally (aka friends ) would rather steal, kill, rob or die before quiting on feeding their kid. Like my wife said, "at the end of the day, that's what we're for."

A male V will find motivation and maybe even pleasure in the recontructive work he does. A female V will pride herself on being able to keep her kids (or, a few of them) alive.

It's their entire mental make-up. In the industrial revolution, the Irish famine, even *during* the battles at Stalingrad, kids were being born.

Again, a lot of them will die. But if she can keep even one alive, she'll be proud. And the human race will keep going on.

(And, if we take Nietsche into account, grow even stronger...)

[modelcitizen]

My presumption about the "Babies Don't Work" misinterpretation of the food-distribution policy is that many (or most?) of the infants or young children would have been at very high risk of dying.

Here's one anecdote of hope for the few that might have survived such a misguided enforcement of the "no work, no eat" rule:

Around 1947 or so, a young refugee couple with a baby boy was among those detained by British authorities after attempting to enter what was then known as Palestine. The detainees were kept at a camp in Cyprus.

This young couple was directed to hand the young child over to the camp's child-care facility. The young couple, with bleak family losses in their very recent memory, refused. They were then informed that they would not receive rations for their child.

The two parents took their own rations and arranged from them food for their baby. The mother chewed the bread to make it into a baby-food. She took water into her mouth and sprayed the baby with the water to bathe him.

At one point, the child was ill, and the parents were frightened for him. Fortunately, the child recovered.


Long story short, Dad met Mom in Israel, they moved to the United States after they got married, I was born under the Nixon reign, and et cetera et cetera.


Naturally, life in the Cyprus detention camp was probably Club Med meets Disneyland compared to post-WW3 life in this tl for young parents. I'm merely speculating that there is a small hope for a precious few young children to have made it past the hideous misapplication of the food-for-work regulation in The Controller's area of jurisdiction.

[nijntjepluis]

@ modelcitizen: You wrote about this before... impressive!


-----------------------------
This is from http://www.ennonline.net/pool/files/...nicef-leb).doc

Breastfeeding in emergencies

Protecting, promoting and supporting breastfeeding, especially exclusive breastfeeding, in emergency situations is particularly important because:
1. The risks of illness are higher. Continued exclusive breastfeeding is therefore even more important as a protective measure
2. Breastfeeding must be protected and encouraged in emergency situations because stress, lack of privacy and over crowding, may temporarily disrupt breastfeeding or make it more difficult.
3. Breastmilk substitutes carry risks of increased illness and mortality in the best of circumstances, Where there is poor hygiene; lack of access to clean water; uncertain supplies of substitutes etc., the use of breastmilk substitutes becomes even more dangerous.

(...)

Common myths in emergencies

Many myths abound about breastfeeding in emergencies that can undermine both a mother’s confidence and the support that she receives. The four most common myths are:

Myth 1: “Stress makes the milk dry up”
While extreme stress or fear may cause milk to momentarily stop flowing, this response, like many other physiological responses to anxiety, is temporary and can be overcome with stress reduction and counselling. Breastfeeding produces hormones that reduce tension, calm the mother and the baby and create a loving bond.

Myth 2: “Malnourished mothers cannot breastfeed”
Fortified foods and supplements should be provided to lactating mothers so that they can feed their babies and maintain the strength to care for older children in the family as well. In the case of severe malnutrition, feed and provide water and supplements to the mother while increasing the frequency of breastfeeding. NB. Breastfeeding supplementers[1] are not required.


(...)

-----------------------------

I believe, however dystopian the surroundings, there's a 50/50 chance that if a mother can keep herself alive, she can keep her baby alive.

[Gen_Patton]

Perhaps that is why there was scuch a big deal made about the "babies can't work" decree, Because the babies were surviving in such pitiful conditions.

[Dunois]

Except that nutrition levels are not as low as it seems here as I have explained before. Maintaining a supply of between 1500 and 2000 kilocalories a day to individuals is not as hard as it seems, especially in the light of the large amount of stockpilled grain which is still available.

The food available to survivors will be bland, not nice looking, but palatable and able to provide enough energy to keep the population going. When things are more organised, it is highly likely that mothers of childbearing age will get special rations.

Don't forget that peasants lived and thrived on bread alone during the 17th and 18th century.

[nijntjepluis]

Oh, and if I may...

Macragge, I'd love to hear about those surviving Germans!

BTW, anyone ever read "Die letzten Kinder von Schewenborn" by Gudrun Pausewang? (link) My mother made me read it when I was twelve. At about the same time, my dad had me watch 'Threads' for the first time... the book was worse.

[Weaver]

Actually the Irish lived on 100% potato diet prior to the famine of 1847.

Classic case of eggs and baskets.

[Falkenburg]

Originally Posted by Weaver

Actually the Irish lived on 100% potato diet prior to the famine of 1847.

Classic case of eggs and baskets.

Something of an overstatement.

While it cannot be denied that the poorest sections of the Irish population were heavily dependent on a single crop (Praties/Spuds), this was not the sole component of their diet.
Seaweed, Buttermilk, Milk and Oatmeal also played significant nutritional roles.

Just saying things were a little more complicated than that. Aren't they always?

Falkenburg

[modelcitizen]

Originally Posted by Dunois

.....
Don't forget that peasants lived and thrived on bread alone during the 17th and 18th century.

oh absolutely

I would have burned boot to get the hell out of there, of course, with the average life span being about um four and a half years ago for me (was it 35?), and the chances of the mother and/or child not surviving the birth process would have curled our scalps in horror if we ever had to contemplate such in person.

but, yes, it's good to have perspective that when a "modern" mother goes through the Manhattan Project to have a baby, the process has been going on for a very, very long time with at times shockingly little support.

[modelcitizen]

Originally Posted by nijntjepluis

Oh, and if I may...

Macragge, I'd love to hear about those surviving Germans!

BTW, anyone ever read "Die letzten Kinder von Schewenborn" by Gudrun Pausewang? (link) My mother made me read it when I was twelve. At about the same time, my dad had me watch 'Threads' for the first time... the book was worse.

the linked article alone is hair-raising!

_

[Macragge1]

Normal service resumes this evening.

'What are we going to do without?'

[JN1]

Hooray! Welcome back.

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Macragge1

Normal service resumes this evening.

'What are we going to do without?'

Sorry to hear about the kicking, btw. Hope everything's okay now.

[Chipperback]

WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[markjones980]

Cant bloody wait