The Union Forever: A TL

[metastasis_d]

Silverism is almost inevitable with the huge lodes of silver being discovered in the west, like in Nevada.

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Okay: Blue is my proposed Alaskan border. Light gray is the old OTL border, dark gray is the old American claim line. So acquiesce to the American claim line, then drop the American claim in favor of the OTL one just south of the BC panhandle, that way Canada isn't left with an enclave.

Looks great. Lets go with it and make the change.

Originally Posted by Letterman

That looks fine to me.

(seeing that I am an Alaskan, it would be kind of cool for my state to get a little bit bigger, but what's just been proposed is just fine)

Mac,

It never ceases to amaze me the level of detail you've given in this thread and how everyone has been willing and able to pitch in with respect to borders, boundaries, territorial claims, etc. and all the other minutiae that makes a good TL better than just an average TL.

I look forward to more updates!

Indeed, its great that this TL has so much support from such talented people.

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Well it is getting a little bigger if Mac approves of this proposal.

But yeah, the detail in this is astounding. I'm glad we've been able to revive this TL before Mac has to go hit up the Kush.

Yeah, it would be great if we can finish the world map before I leave. That will help me write updates overseas. Cheers.

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

I am currently working on an electoral map video ( you will understand what I mean when I post it)

I have a few questions though, was there ever a populist party (especially one that one states in the general election)? (It was mentioned that in 1896, there were populists in the Democratic Party, but I am unsure if they are used in the same context, or if there was a populist party beforehand)

Also, was there a "silverism" movement. The 1880's and 1890's update mentioned a few minor panics and depressions along with the gold reserve being depleted, It would strike me as odd if nobody proposed a Silver standard to replace the Gold Standard.

Given how popular the Silver Standard was in the West IOTL, whichever party embraced the Silver Standard could swing several western states into their column.

Based on the system we have, I assume either the democrats or Republicans will embrace silverism to absorb the populists. Given the fact that during the time frame that the Silver and Gold Standard debate was important, we have both the Republicans and RTL, and the Democrats under Custer, I suspect the Silver standard would have a much better chance of being implemented (IOTL, the Republicans controlled the Presidency during the time this was debated)

Which means, we might end up with the Silver Standard existing today...

I can't wait to see the electoral map video I am sure it will be great. As far as the populists go they exist in the TL pretty much like they did in OTL. We could have a separate Populist Party pick up a few, and i mean few, electoral votes in the 1888 and 1892 elections. In the TL they are split more between the major parties and by 1896 get mostly folded into the Democratic Party although many would defect to the Republicans starting in 1900.

Yeah, the Silver/Gold standard debate really should be covered more in this TL than it is. Sadly I am not very strong on economic history. I think it would be great if we could get the U.S. on a silver standard. Perhaps President Samuel Randal places the country on the Silver Standard in 1885 after the economic panic of 1883 caused by over speculation on the nation's gold reserves. My question is would it be a bi-metal or strictly silver standard? What would some of the effects be?

[naraht]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

Okay: Blue is my proposed Alaskan border. Light gray is the old OTL border, dark gray is the old American claim line. So acquiesce to the American claim line, then drop the American claim in favor of the OTL one just south of the BC panhandle, that way Canada isn't left with an enclave.

Canada wouldn't have an exclave, but British Columbia would...

Also, see
AHC:Alaska Panhandle road (
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc....php?p=6351657)

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

I can't wait to see the electoral map video I am sure it will be great. As far as the populists go they exist in the TL pretty much like they did in OTL. We could have a separate Populist Party pick up a few, and i mean few, electoral votes in the 1888 and 1892 elections. In the TL they are split more between the major parties and by 1896 get mostly folded into the Democratic Party although many would defect to the Republicans starting in 1900.

Yeah, the Silver/Gold standard debate really should be covered more in this TL than it is. Sadly I am not very strong on economic history. I think it would be great if we could get the U.S. on a silver standard. Perhaps President Samuel Randal places the country on the Silver Standard in 1885 after the economic panic of 1883 caused by over speculation on the nation's gold reserves. My question is would it be a bi-metal or strictly silver standard? What would some of the effects be?

If it were to be implemented in the 1880's, I don't think the Populists, would form as implementing the silver standard was their big thing. Perhaps Custer becomes the proponent of bi-metalism, allowing him to sweep the west, and he then narrowly wins in the midwest of the nation

Here are some economic effects

a)the Price of Silver would double at the time (it was at a ratio of 1 to 32, instead of the proposed 1 to 16)

b)prices would remain more stable in times of economic turmoil

c)the financial establishment of the Northeast, along with railroads, factories and businessmen, who were creditors, would lose a good deal of money initially if bimetallism was instantly implemented (sparking the depression of 1897?)

d)Wheat and Cotton Farmers would see their prices rise, which would allow them to make more money, along with the silver miners in the west

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

Looks great. Lets go with it and make the change.

I'm having trouble making it look decent on the QBam. Anyone else want to give it a shot?

Yeah, it would be great if we can finish the world map before I leave. That will help me write updates overseas. Cheers.

Well let's get on it then!

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by naraht

Canada wouldn't have an exclave, but British Columbia would...

Also, see
AHC:Alaska Panhandle road (
http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc....php?p=6351657)

Wasn't BC part of Canada as of 1871 OTL?

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

I'm having trouble making it look decent on the QBam. Anyone else want to give it a shot?



Well let's get on it then!

A World map Q-bam is too large to load though, so we would either have to do a normal map, or just do parts of a world map

Also, here is the improved map

Eventually, we will have 3 or 4 part map, that we can somewhat put together

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

If it were to be implemented in the 1880's, I don't think the Populists, would form as implementing the silver standard was their big thing. Perhaps Custer becomes the proponent of bi-metalism, allowing him to sweep the west, and he then narrowly wins in the midwest of the nation

Here are some economic effects

a)the Price of Silver would double at the time (it was at a ratio of 1 to 32, instead of the proposed 1 to 16)

b)prices would remain more stable in times of economic turmoil

c)the financial establishment of the Northeast, along with railroads, factories and businessmen, who were creditors, would lose a good deal of money initially if bimetallism was instantly implemented (sparking the depression of 1897?)

d)Wheat and Cotton Farmers would see their prices rise, which would allow them to make more money, along with the silver miners in the west

How about this. Let’s say that the populists form as in OTL. In 1884 and 1888 they run their own candidates and capture two or three states. In 1892 they back Democrat David Hill who implements the Silver Standard. When Custer is elected in 1896 he abruptly changes it to bimetallism which sparks the depression of 1897. Once Robert Todd Lincoln becomes President in 1900 he creates the Third Bank of the United States and reestablishes the Silver Standard. Would this work or is it to big of a rewrite? Does it make since that a Democratic President would establish the Silver standard and then his Democratic successor change it to bimetallism? Would the U.S. still be on the Silver Standard into the 1950's?

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

How about this. Let’s say that the populists form as in OTL. In 1884 and 1888 they run their own candidates and capture two or three states. In 1892 they back Democrat David Hill who implements the Silver Standard. When Custer is elected in 1896 he abruptly changes it to bimetallism which sparks the depression of 1897. Once Robert Todd Lincoln becomes President in 1900 he creates the Third Bank of the United States and reestablishes the Silver Standard. Would this work or is it to big of a rewrite? Does it make since that a Democratic President would establish the Silver standard and then his Democratic successor change it to bimetallism? Would the U.S. still be on the Silver Standard into the 1950's?

I have no idea; I don't know much about economics and especially economics of the turn of the century.

[TheKnightIrish]

Actually that does begin to work. The Democrats were split between the Bourbon Democrats who staunchly upheld the gold standard and the Populists, particularly William Jennings Bryan, who wanted bimetallism. I'm not sure how silver -v-bimetallism works though rather than gold -v- bimetallism.

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by TheKnightIrish

Actually that does begin to work. The Democrats were split between the Bourbon Democrats who staunchly upheld the gold standard and the Populists, particularly William Jennings Bryan, who wanted bimetallism. I'm not sure how silver -v-bimetallism works though rather than gold -v- bimetallism.

I know Bimetallism would cause investors to lose more money, and prices to up faster than just silverism, so perhaps after President Custer tries Bimetallism (which explodes in his face with the 1897 depression), Silverism might be adopted to stablize Prices and create more money, yet preventing investors from losing so much money.

[pearsonwright]

on another unrelated topic, shouldn't Fission have already been discovered (or about to be discovered), and what will the Nuclear Arsenals of the World Powers be like?

[Lalli]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

on another unrelated topic, shouldn't Fission have already been discovered (or about to be discovered), and what will the Nuclear Arsenals of the World Powers be like?

I don't know what kind situation is with fission but nuclear weapons surely appears much later. There not be much reason develope that kind weapons.

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by Lalli

I don't know what kind situation is with fission but nuclear weapons surely appears much later. There not be much reason develope that kind weapons.

Without a WWII equivalent it could be set back 15 or 20 years, but I assume it would be at least thought of, or started being developed by now

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

I know Bimetallism would cause investors to lose more money, and prices to up faster than just silverism, so perhaps after President Custer tries Bimetallism (which explodes in his face with the 1897 depression), Silverism might be adopted to stablize Prices and create more money, yet preventing investors from losing so much money.

This sounds good to me. So do we see Silverism still being around in the TL?

[Mac Gregor]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

on another unrelated topic, shouldn't Fission have already been discovered (or about to be discovered), and what will the Nuclear Arsenals of the World Powers be like?

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

Without a WWII equivalent it could be set back 15 or 20 years, but I assume it would be at least thought of, or started being developed by now

Originally Posted by Lalli

I don't know what kind situation is with fission but nuclear weapons surely appears much later. There not be much reason develope that kind weapons.

Good question regarding Fission. I will discuss it in the next few updates.

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by Mac Gregor

This sounds good to me. So do we see Silverism still being around in the TL?

Well, it might be very discredited since Bimetallism would fail, then die a quiet death

It might be possible that we see RTL use a pure Silver standard afterwords (as it would negate some of the bad effects of bi-metalism), but I suspect he would restore the Gold Standard, because the Republican Party in that period, got a lot of support from big businessmen and creditors, who I suspect would push for a Gold Standard. (given that the 1897 depression was very severe, I bet most supporters of Silverism would still vote for a Gold Standard candidate just out of disdain for Custer

Also here is 1892

Democrat - 242 EV
Republican - 190 EV
Populist - 13 EV

[metastasis_d]

Originally Posted by pearsonwright

Without a WWII equivalent it could be set back 15 or 20 years, but I assume it would be at least thought of, or started being developed by now

It would be cool to see nuclear power before nuclear weapons.

[pearsonwright]

Originally Posted by metastasis_d

It would be cool to see nuclear power before nuclear weapons.

I wonder if Nukes could be used for construction projects as well like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plowshare