Ideas for an earlier Jewish National Home

Zealot

Alternate succession of events:

1 Pelatine retains a more stable, economic and politically active jewish minority in Ottoman Palestine, which reaches aprox 25% of the population by 1800 (Jaffa or Acre remain a Salonika-like jewish city, for exemple )

2 Minor migrations pre-1880 (Damascus affair, Perushim) and decreasing arab population (Jews had moved to the coastal cities before Galilee earthquakes)

3 Palestinian jews decide to back Muhammad Ali during egyptian conquest, and after the 1840 Oriental Crisis the Powers agree with Egypt retaining Palestine. More loyal jewish immigration and investment are encouraged

4 Following the assassination of Alexander III, there's big pressure from Zionist across Europe for accepting more jews, a mini-war is fought in Palestine between jews and Arabs. The memory of the recent massacres of Lebanese Christians helps the Jews to gain sympathy for their cause

5 Egyptian rule goes into chaos after Urabi's coup. British intervention in Egypt also results in the establishment of a Protectorate of Jewish Palestine (Britons are lobbied by influential British and European Jewry)

6. Population exchange: Ottoman jews flee to Palestinian haven, while arab inhabitants are expeled (yes, it's inevitable, but in this TL it happens at minor scale)

I know that the whole idea sounds a little ASBish....but think about the fact that OTL's Israel's History is always far more ASbish!!
 

Keenir

Banned
Zealot said:
Alternate succession of events:
Click to expand...

this is an interesting outline.

I just have one question:

4 Following the assassination of Alexander III, there's big pressure from Zionist across Europe for accepting more jews, a mini-war is fought in Palestine between jews and Arabs. The memory of the recent massacres of Lebanese Christians helps the Jews to gain sympathy for their cause


6. Population exchange: Ottoman jews flee to Palestinian haven, while arab inhabitants are expeled (yes, it's inevitable, but in this TL it happens at minor scale)
Click to expand...

inevitable?

why's it inevitable? (particularly with the massacres of Lebanese Christians beforehand, any expulsion of the Palestinians (many of whom are Christian) will have the European Powers going "not again")

but other than that, I like this.
 

Blair152

Banned
Zealot said:
Alternate succession of events:

1 Pelatine retains a more stable, economic and politically active jewish minority in Ottoman Palestine, which reaches aprox 25% of the population by 1800 (Jaffa or Acre remain a Salonika-like jewish city, for exemple )

2 Minor migrations pre-1880 (Damascus affair, Perushim) and decreasing arab population (Jews had moved to the coastal cities before Galilee earthquakes)

3 Palestinian jews decide to back Muhammad Ali during egyptian conquest, and after the 1840 Oriental Crisis the Powers agree with Egypt retaining Palestine. More loyal jewish immigration and investment are encouraged

4 Following the assassination of Alexander III, there's big pressure from Zionist across Europe for accepting more jews, a mini-war is fought in Palestine between jews and Arabs. The memory of the recent massacres of Lebanese Christians helps the Jews to gain sympathy for their cause

5 Egyptian rule goes into chaos after Urabi's coup. British intervention in Egypt also results in the establishment of a Protectorate of Jewish Palestine (Britons are lobbied by influential British and European Jewry)

6. Population exchange: Ottoman jews flee to Palestinian haven, while arab inhabitants are expeled (yes, it's inevitable, but in this TL it happens at minor scale)

I know that the whole idea sounds a little ASBish....but think about the fact that OTL's Israel's History is always far more ASbish!!
Click to expand...
In the 1977 telefilm Raid On Entebbe, the actor playing the Israeli Prime
Minister, said that when they were considering a homeland for the Jews of
Europe, Uganda was originally a consideration.
 

Minchandre

The major problem here is, ironically enough, the larger Jewish population in the area. Leaving aside the fact that I can't imagine how that would happen, the Jews of the "Old Yishuv" (i.e. Jews living in Palestine before Zionism) were a big problem for the Zionists. They were religious where the Zionists were secular, they were Arab where the Zionists were European. Many of the Old Yishuv actually actively opposed Zionism, because it wasn't man's place to return the Jews to Zion (that was the Messiah's responsibility).
 

Zealot

Keenir said:
this is an interesting outline.

I just have one question:



inevitable?

why's it inevitable? (particularly with the massacres of Lebanese Christians beforehand, any expulsion of the Palestinians (many of whom are Christian) will have the European Powers going "not again")

but other than that, I like this.
Click to expand...

IMO that's inevitable, because most of the wars of that period ended in ethnic cleansings like this one. Remember the outcome of Russo-turkish war of 1870s; the alleged cause for Russian attack had been Ottoman mistreatment of Christian subjects, and the turkish defeat resulted in mass expulsion of muslims.

Unfortunately, things often happened like this.... I'm afraid that non-violent TLs are too unreal, at least during the 19th century, so I've tried to develop the least tragic one, and minimize the number of civilians exchanged...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I have suggested a accidental Jewish state earlier. In 1772 When Austria gained Galicia they needed a easy access to it, rather than needing to go through the Carpatian. The solution was to buy Bukowina from Moldavia in 1775, it was a rather depopulated province, but because of it importance as a trading hub, it saw doubling in population the first ten years and a ten fold increase in population over the next century, partly from natural growth but mostly from emigration.

Maria Theresa had followed the long tradition of develop easten province by moving emigrants into them, partly by force partly by giving privileges (religeous Freedom for Protestants). So what if she decide Bukowina need a large urban population to develop fast as a trading hub to integrate Galicia into the empire. While Theresa had extented the rights of Protestants under her rule, she despised Jews, and this could be a good oppotunity to get rid of two problems at the same time. So she decide to move a large numbers of Jews to Bukowina to develop it. While the poplicy likely are stopped with her death you could see a large Jewish population at her death (easily 25% of the population), the growing urbanisation and large Jewish community results in a growing Jewish emigration the next couple of decades. By the 1875 you see Bukowina as a plurality Jewish state, which inspire the early Zionist to adopt it as the new Zion, and they begin a process to buy the land in the country side and setting up agricultural communes to make it a true Yiddish homeland in the Austrian state. If/When Austria collapse, they make up a big enough majority to set up their own homeland, rather than being conquered by Romania.

By modern day Bukowina are a state of 2-3 million people split between a Jewish majority of 65% of the population 15% Romanians, 10% Ruthenians, 5% Germans and 5% others.
 
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Zealot

Minchandre said:
The major problem here is, ironically enough, the larger Jewish population in the area. Leaving aside the fact that I can't imagine how that would happen, the Jews of the "Old Yishuv" (i.e. Jews living in Palestine before Zionism) were a big problem for the Zionists. They were religious where the Zionists were secular, they were Arab where the Zionists were European. Many of the Old Yishuv actually actively opposed Zionism, because it wasn't man's place to return the Jews to Zion (that was the Messiah's responsibility).
Click to expand...


OTL Old Yishuv was actually composed either of Sephardic jews, more compliant to the Zionist cause, or elderly jews of Eastern Europe, whose last years were devoted to the study of Torah. This jewish population, due to his size, his total dependence on aid from abroad managed by autocratic rabbis, and his passive profile, wasn't interested neither in nation-building nor in farming the land of their forefathers. This is in fact the origin of Haredi israelis, who reject involvement in modern world chiefly for practical reasons: Haredi rabbis fear to loose their followers if they achieve economic self-sufficiency.

But a higher jewish population (essential premise) cannot rely only on charity, so the socioeconomic profile of TTL Palestinian Jewry would be very different if demographics changed
 

Konrad13

With all the colonization going on in Africa, surely a Jewish venture could have seen some fruition. IDEA!

Have one of the colonial powers get crazy and want to deport the Jews from their proper homeland (France, Britain, Germany, etc.) but still want to get money from it down the road. Easy: Deport them to an African colony. With the influx of Jews, perhaps Jews from other areas of Europe, American and the Near East get on board and move there. Then, as time passes and the colony becomes semi-successful, they are granted autonomy (perhaps as a protectorate or dominion). TADA! Earlier Jewish National Home IN AFRICA!
 

Minchandre

Konrad13 said:
With all the colonization going on in Africa, surely a Jewish venture could have seen some fruition. IDEA!

Have one of the colonial powers get crazy and want to deport the Jews from their proper homeland (France, Britain, Germany, etc.) but still want to get money from it down the road. Easy: Deport them to an African colony. With the influx of Jews, perhaps Jews from other areas of Europe, American and the Near East get on board and move there. Then, as time passes and the colony becomes semi-successful, they are granted autonomy (perhaps as a protectorate or dominion). TADA! Earlier Jewish National Home IN AFRICA!
Click to expand...

The only problem with that logic (and I'm not saying that people wouldn't do illogical things, anyway) is that the way that Jews make money - as tax collectors, traders, jewelers, physicians, etc - requires them to be in urban areas. Remote Jews are not profitable in the Early Modern period or later. Hell, they aren't profitable earlier, either.
 

Orioes

Don Joseph Nasi (1) a 16th century court Jew had not one but three chances to create a Jewish homeland between 1554 and 1579. One in Cyprus, another in the Levant when he was made Lord of Tiberias and finally one in the Aegean islands when he became Duke of Naxos. All ultimately failed due to changes in the political landscape but with a few strong-winged butterflies he might get somewhere.

(1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nasi
 

Monty Burns

Minchandre said:
The only problem with that logic (and I'm not saying that people wouldn't do illogical things, anyway) is that the way that Jews make money - as tax collectors, traders, jewelers, physicians, etc - requires them to be in urban areas. Remote Jews are not profitable in the Early Modern period or later. Hell, they aren't profitable earlier, either.
Click to expand...

That's only true for the western Europeean Jews. IF, for example, by whatever means Germany/Prussia get the whole of Congress Poland and maybe more, I can see them trying to expulse those Eastern Jews, some of which would actually be farmers and craftsmen and hence viable colonists.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Monty Burns said:
That's only true for the western Europeean Jews. IF, for example, by whatever means Germany/Prussia get the whole of Congress Poland and maybe more, I can see them trying to expulse those Eastern Jews, some of which would actually be farmers and craftsmen and hence viable colonists.
Click to expand...

Why?

In OTL the Prussian never expulse the Jews, they usual prefered them over the Poles and intermarriage between the poorer Junkers and rich Jews was quite common. So why do the Prussian adopt radical different policies toward the Jews when they gain Congress Poland?
 

Tyr

How about a less racist US decides to set apart a area as 'Jew Town'- this eventually evolves into a Jewish majority state.
The problem is Jews by their nature (well...not their nature but by the way society pushes them) tend towards nice big rich urban areas where they can run their various traditional buisnesses, not the middle of nowhere to be farmers.
 

Zealot

Orioes said:
Don Joseph Nasi (1) a 16th century court Jew had not one but three chances to create a Jewish homeland between 1554 and 1579. One in Cyprus, another in the Levant when he was made Lord of Tiberias and finally one in the Aegean islands when he became Duke of Naxos. All ultimately failed due to changes in the political landscape but with a few strong-winged butterflies he might get somewhere.

(1)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nasi
Click to expand...


I didn't know it ! That's a very interesting possible starting point .... Perhaps if he had just been partially successful in resettling jews in Galilee..... stronger jewish population than OTL.....

I do think that the best chance for a JNH is slightly different Palestine.... In fact, every OTL chances for a jewish homeland elsewhere failed, because the great mayority of Zionists opposed it.
 

Rousseau

Tyr said:
How about a less racist US decides to set apart a area as 'Jew Town'- this eventually evolves into a Jewish majority state.
The problem is Jews by their nature (well...not their nature but by the way society pushes them) tend towards nice big rich urban areas where they can run their various traditional buisnesses, not the middle of nowhere to be farmers.
Click to expand...

If anyone recalls the movie 'CSA', I don't quite remember the whole of the title, though it focuses on a successful Confederacy over the Union; Long Island was actually established as being a 'Jewish Reserve', akin to those existing in the western territories for the Indians.

Of course, it is established later on in the film that the conditions there are a lot better. In real life, the population of New York City, and Long Island as a whole is already a great part Jewish- so perhaps if some event in Europe forced an earlier and less gradual migration to Long Island, a similar condition could arise for the United States to declare the island such.
 

Zealot

Why the Maronite Christian population remaned relatively high during Arab and Ottoman rule in Lebanon and Palestinian Jewry did not? What were the factors which allowed or prevented them?
 
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