(Hockey TL) How to? Stronger Canadian population size and growth

In my spare time I've been developing a hockey sim and perhaps over the summer I'll have some more time to work on it, and I thought it'd be fun to use an alternate history from around the time hockey was starting to develop (1860s-'70s) to make some cities more prominent :D so that I could rationalize having teams there. I was thinking of sticking a PoD in the early 1850s as a starting point, since- while being fairly early, the actual sport of hockey is likely preserved as a possible future (it picked up around the 1860s apparently), is before Canadian confederation and gives enough time for any population increase.

Anyway, the point is many Canadian cities are simply too small to host professional hockey clubs. I figure this didn't have to be the case. Perhaps places like Halifax, Fredericton, Saint John's, Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon etc. could've been bigger than IOTL, as well as other cities that are small being more prominent. That's sort of what I'm looking for: how exactly could Canada increase its population in places like this. As a sort of secondary objective, it might be nice to see a resolution to the Oregon dispute more in favor of Canada- but my main thing is "with Canada's current borders, how could they get a larger population?"

I'm thinking some major changes to immigration policy but I bet there a few things I have not considered. I'm all ears to cities that might have favorably developed, and my biggest want is to increase the populations in Saskatchewan and the Maritimes enough to justify plopping down some franchises there when I get time to finish my sim (perhaps in the mean time just hack EHM and do it) :D.

EDIT* I know there's a Canada-wank thread but I'm not trying to wank Canada or anything, just as a disclaimer. Just get 0.6mil populations in a few more cities at the very least. As a second note, sorry about the awkward title, I don't think "stronger" is the best world here but I just wanted to get the thread out so I could pop in tomorrow and maybe one or two people might care to respond.
 
Last edited:
The west is easy...

Allow for full recruitment of all canidates to Canada instead of OTL's preference for anglo-saxons and ideally farmers. Once the TransCanada railway was built and they started recruiting groups such as Ukranians the west's population exploded.

For the east? earlier transition to manufactering and an earlier transition to non-fishing based buisnesses. When the fisheries crashed and the mass immigration out of province occurred a big labour and skills gap left.
 
Is there any way to get Newfoundland to above 1 million people? Assuming we rig the vote so they join Confederation :D.
 
Going to bump this, I know it's not popular. To get more to the point:

- I'd like to get Halifax to around 1,000,000 in pop (or close), along with a city in Cape Breton from 600,000 - 700,000- and even if possible, perhaps a city in southern Nova Scotia (rebuilt Annapolis?) with the same.
- New Brunswick's three big cities: Fredericton, Saint John and Moncton with populations above 600,000.
- *Manitoba with a second large city, or Winnipeg remaining one of the largest cities in Canada (it was 3rd biggest until the 1920s I believe).
- Regina and Saskatoon with populations close to 600,000.
- Vancouver Island with a population nearing 1,000,000.

This is by a time around now. I realize there'll be butterflies with earlier changes but I'm just looking at it from a very desensitized, general view of what could contribute to a population like this.

If you guys have any input, even a few words (perhaps a mean jab about taking Coo's Bay :p) it's what I'm looking for. I know it's not a popular or entertaining subject but :D. If there are any other tangents you'd like to go on I'm all ears- basically anything to increase Canada's population so I stick hockey teams in places :D. Any PoD after the 1850s is perfectly acceptable.
 
Last edited:
- I'd like to get Halifax to around 1,000,000 in pop (or close), along with a city in Cape Breton from 600,000 - 700,000- and even if possible, perhaps a city in southern Nova Scotia (rebuilt Annapolis?) with the same.

The chances to have that are there, don't kick the Acadiens out, build the Shubenacadie canal, faster and to British standards. Have it be THE winter port of Canada instead of Saint John, the Maritimes join together before Confederation as planned, and maybe more federal government funding ;). Yarmouth, or Shelbourne, more likely Yarmouth do to its proximity to the banks, and the US. CB, have it diversify when the mills were swinging, and get the government involved so company towns don't become the norm. Don't build the canso causeway... that's the 1950's though.

- New Brunswick's three big cities: Fredericton, Saint John and Moncton with populations above 600,000..

Can't see all three. SJ and Moncton yes, they were always more than just government towns. (Freddy does have two excellent Universities on top but only now starting to add to it's economies.) A booming Halifax means a booming Moncton, Saint john is still an important port, and if If both Halifax and Moncton are doing well, so is Saint John. Both are in key locations, and are crossroads in each others area of contact. The Maritimes/Canada, and the Saint John river/US/Moncton, respectively.

- *Manitoba with a second large city, or Winnipeg remaining one of the largest cities in Canada (it was 3rd biggest until the 1920s I believe)..

foresterab, I'll subscribe to your newsletter on both above and below. Adding a Crown CNR earlier, would help. How much earlier? How much earlier can Canada afford it?

- Regina and Saskatoon with populations close to 600,000..

- Vancouver Island with a population nearing 1,000,000..

...making it Canada's Florida? Make proscriptions dirt cheap there! :D Have the Spanish set up on the island, and a west coast conflict where Britain has to solidify Pacific America claims. You would have a Spanish, Amerindian, British mixed Island. Oregon would still be British too.
 
Last edited:
Reddog794 said:
The chances to have that are there, don't kick the Acadiens out, build the Shubenacadie canal, faster and to British standards. Have it be THE winter port of Canada instead of Saint John, the Maritimes join together before Confederation as planned, and maybe more federal government funding . Yarmouth, or Shelbourne, more likely Yarmouth do to its proximity to the banks, and the US. CB, have it diversify when the mills were swinging, and get the government involved so company towns don't become the norm. Don't build the canso causeway... that's the 1950's though.

Reddog794 said:
...making it Canada's Florida? Make proscriptions dirt cheap there! Have the Spanish set up on the island, and a west coast conflict where Britain has to solidify Pacific America claims. You would have a Spanish, Amerindian, British mixed Island. Oregon would still be British too.

Thanks a lot! This is great, I didn't even know about the Shubenacadie canal (I'm from Vancouver but don't know a ton about the East Coast : \).

I think to avoid the Acadien expulsion and to get the Spanish to set up more on Vancouver Island I'd have to dig a bit further back, perhaps I should just stick a TL in the 1700s. The butterflies might eat up my main hockey TL but perhaps it'd be interesting :D.

Amerigo Vespucci said:
If you develop a TL, I'd love to see the Republic of Alaska have a pro team.

I'll stick it in there somewhere :D.
 
Last edited:
Is there any way to get Newfoundland to above 1 million people? Assuming we rig the vote so they join Confederation :D.

Have it recognized as a colony earlier. Make sure the fish barons can't set up shop. Two ideas that come to mind.
 
foresterab, I'll subscribe to your newsletter on both above and below. Adding a Crown CNR earlier, would help. How much earlier? How much earlier can Canada afford it?

Couple of other things that would help...ensure that route of the CNR is known in advance (unlike OTL when they just started building) and ensure that the land speculation that caused several land boom/bust cycles to be eliminated. Proper surveys of the farm lands as the railway goes forward would help. Much of the west was still being surveyed in the 1930's for settlement which really restricted some areas opening up...

This would help expand Winnipeg and potentially Brandon. I don't think Canada can afford the CNR earlier but they can upgrade the route from the lakehead (today's Thunder Bay, Ont) to the west. Building a proper trail/ferry system to the prairies would have allowed an earlier start to settlement. Plus if we could have continued shipping folks to the prairies via the US (like much of the CNR supplies did) the canadian population explosion would be happening at the same time the US land rush was going on.

Alternatively have the Grand Trunk and the smorgasbord of the railways in eastern canada (constructed about as messed up as possible) work on trying to bride the Lakehead to Rat Portage (now Kenora) to the prairies first before trying to tackle the bedrock of the Canadian shield and the BC mountains. More dynamite was used in Northern Ontario constructing the railway than any other province...including all the BC cuts/tunnels/fills etc.

Lastly have dynamite invented earlier. Nitro blasting was possible but given the huge volumes of blasting to be done nitrogycerien was not the tool. Dynamite factories (IIRC the CNR built at least 3 just for it's own use) are a key to construction.

Vancouver Island have it become a major British port like Halifax/St. John's and allow for the farm production there to be the major resupply link enroute to the Sandwich Islands/Phillipines/Japan. Earlier timber exports would help but you'd have to have significant industry there in place to support it locally first.
 
I think the key issue is to get more people into Canada prior to 1900.
The best way I can think is to have a worse and more bloody American Civil War, possibly with a Radical Republican reconstruction and some guerilla warfare thrown in. This makes the US less attractive to European would be migrants.
Part two is to have Canada have a more friendly immigration policy, with anyone (even Irish) welcome. In order to appease the Red Tories set up an equivalent to £5 poms, i.e. subsidies for British migrants. By redirecting 10% of OTL migrants to the US between 1970 and 1900 to Canada you would get 1.7 million extra people. As they would have children after arrival Canadian population growth is substantially boosted, so that by 1900 instead of 5.3 million people you could have 8 million. Keep high levels of immigration up and you could easily get 45 million by today.
While you can expect a lot of that to merely make existing major cities larger (Toronto, Montreal) at least some will go into places like Winnipeg.
 
Hmm. I think a PoD around the Seven Years' War might be better for the hockey-favorable Canada I'm going for here, if I want to prevent the expulsion of the Acadiens and such while maintaining some of the good suggestions here (and place-names for modern cities as well).

Though I'm tempted to do an earlier PoD, perhaps I'll save that one for the future. I feel like it'd be too many butterflies and cities could end up with different names and such : \
 
Alright bit of an update. I drafted this map a few days ago, sorry it's really rough, I'm not subscribing to these borders at all it was just a general sketch to get my creative juices flowing for the sake of hockey :D. Walls of text below, beware :p.

canadaborderscopy.png


Anyway, I'll give you general reasoning so you can fix the borders in your head ;).

The general PoD is during the Seven Years' War in 1755 and in 1759 at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham. For those who are unfamiliar with the history, this is a good briefing.

I'm taking liberties with the 1755 PoD, assuming things go similarly to OTL. Here the British decide not to begin mass deporting Acadiens from Nova Scotia, instead containing them and forbidding movement or communications. They plan to deport them closer to the end of the war, in order to concentrate on the remaining conquest of Canada.

The 1759 PoD assumes Wolfe attempts a similar attack on Quebec City (it's likely he would I think). The actual assault was almost ASB in luck, but that's history. ITTL, Montcalm makes a very brash tactical decision to withhold his forces and allow the British to set up for an engagement on the Plains. This would allow Colonel Louis Antoine de Bougainville's to set up a flank behind the British forces, leaving them nowhere to go but back down the earthworks. He allows the British to entrench themselves in their camp, which conventionally was a boneheaded move. Because he waited unlike IOTL, Wolfe's forces are better entrenched in a favorable formation and have manage to establish much of their camp to better suit the battle (IOTL a lot of houses and stores were burned). However, Bougainville's men actually get into place for the start of the battle- which means the British forces are going to end up in a pincer attack by both French forces- which also severely outnumber them. When Montcalm's forces engage the British line, Bougainville flanks them from the rear, something the British did not expect.

Montcalm's line suffers and gets disorganized as IOTL because Wolfe had quite a good volley strategy against the French. However the difference here is Bougainville's flank attack incapacitates a good quarter of the British as they're focusing fire elsewhere. This allows Montcalm and Bougainville to establish positioning on the British entrenchment and it ultimately falls. Some of the Highlanders leap from the Earthworks rather then surrender, and the British forces fall into a really disorganized retreat (a parallel to the French retreat IOTL which was similarly disorganized). British forces are dispersed, most of their leaders killed (which they also were IOTL) but Wolfe survives, despite being shot in the wrist and lower stomach. Most of Wolfe's 4800 regulars are captured, wounded or killed.

This is a fairly significant changing point in the war. Where IOTL the French were basically doomed at this point, having lost Québec and Louisbourg; here they manage to hang on, and with a significant number of British prisoners. I imagine the British and French would trade engagements throughout the rest of the war: Montcalm I think, is unlikely to stretch his forces south of the Great Lakes and will probably lose that territory. The peace treaty used in this map was a similar victory in the early '60s. France retains Île Royale (Cape Breton Island) with a demolished Louisbourg, which I believe would incense colonists who methodically destroyed it in 1760. The French would also retain the lands north of the Ottawa river (Quebec), which would've been a very significant cessation as before they had lands as far down as the Ohio. This territory would get further defined by keeping lands north of Miramichi river and the Tobique river (a tributary of the Saint Jean). The rest of the land gets ceded to the British.

That was the general idea. Montcalm would go down a hero in French-Canadian history, whereas Wolfe would lose face for having lost his entire force in a pitched battle.

This map above comes from sort of long-term generalizations I made just for stimulating thought, it's nowhere near a final draft. The idea would be the British ultimately manage to reconquer the French territories at some point: I think this map assumes relatively early conquest, but it could take many years (perhaps in some TLs not at all). The British forcibly deport Acadiens but give them a choice of going north to Île Royale or to French Acadia (the part of the map that's New Brunswick / Gaspe). I'm assuming an American Revolution of sorts happen, and I still think it's realistic within this timeline. I think this map sort of assumes re-conquest of the French then war. You can see Lake Champlain is retained in the map, as well as the northern third of Maine partitioned between Quebec and New Brunswick (the upper third is meant to be partitioned into Acadia). There's also a piece of territory nestled in Northern New York that touches on the western edges of Lake Champlain. Since I intended this to be a more peaceful TL (better for hockey) I'm imagining whoever's governor of Canada is a bit more serious about ceding lands to the Mohawk / Iroquois, who I'm assuming help them out still in the American Revolutionary War. With more British success and a desire by whoever's governor to contain Native Americans and avoid conflict from expanded settlements, they take the largely depopulated / not so useful Northern New York land, as well as the western bit of Lake Champlain and cede it as a semi-province to the Iroquois.

I generalized a bit more population success in Nova Scotia and Ontario. Quebec has a bit more breathing room to get big, and no Acadia deportations leaves a significant French population in northern New Brunswick and Île Royale. I imagine Louisbourg gets rebuilt, and is not wrecked when the British retake it so it remains the principle port on Île Royale. In the west, you can see British Columbia sort of awkwardly partitioned. I carved out the land in the Yukon south of the Yukon river and merged it with the greater part of the Alaska Panhandle (I am assuming a British purchase) and the Stikine Territory. The Oregon Dispute (assuming it still happens) leaves the British not with the Columbia River, but territory as far south as Bellingham Bay (a bit further), allowing more southernly environs of Vancouver to develop. Vancouver Island remain a colony- this and the Yukon were done mostly for aesthetics, feasibility is another thing.

The west was inspired by that other Canadian thread with more favorable southern borders. Alberta gets the larger part of land south of Red Deer, the eastern bit of B.C. (along the Rockies) and a chunk of the Idaho Panhandle that ends up being British here. Assiniboia is OTL southern Saskatchewan and the western third of OTL Manitoba. Saskatchewan is northern Saskatchewan on that map. Athabasca is the big chunk of northern territory, with the only notable settlement probably being Edmonton. Because Canada keeps more of the Red River here, I imagined the borders of Manitoba being more southernly focused, so Assiniboia gets a chunk of them. I'm also assuming they get a much higher population, so they get a more favorable result in the eventual dispute with Northwestern Ontario.

The rest is just the Northwest Territories. Ungava District was kept in the NWT in this map but it was more time constraints and forgetfullness, not any purpose. East of Lake Winnipeg the NWT territories were drawn up randomly too just for aesthetics, as I imagine that territory would be disputed between Athabasca, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario. If you look carefully, you can also see my misplaced National Capital Region messily around the general area where Ottawa might be (I'm probably well off).

That's sort of the general direction I was going to go in anyway, sorry for so much text. I won't replicate the map for the end of my TL I'll try and look more stuff up and draw on past "New France survives" type TLs. If you have any comments or suggestions on future events, probably specifically the American Revolution and the implications of a Montcalm victory in Europe I'd be happy to hear them. I'm also somewhat interested in what would happen to Île Royale and Acadia in this scenario, where they are left grafted onto French lands. Would they ultimately have the time to get larger populations that could make some of their cities significant? I am imagining here Louisbourg and perhaps a port on Chaleurs Bay. Or will they sort of just be obscure backwaters with a majority Francophone population in Acadia and a large Francophone population in Louisbourg, however it's population ends up.

The creation of an Iroquois state I've always thought left open some interesting possibilities in the future. Native Americans were mostly heavily mistreated in British-controlled areas of Canada. The Métis were repressed, the Cree stuck in residential schools, etc. With the Iroquois however, if they're given nominal 'protectoratehood' here as opposed to just a land grant in the middle of Ontario, perhaps the British would focus on deporting Native Americans to Iroquois Province as opposed to chasing them more westward. Not sure how feasible or realistic this is, I'm sure if anyone bothers to read this they're already skeptical of a Native American province. However, if we just assume that train of thought happens, it might be possible that this region becomes somewhat densely populated with a wide variety of North Americans (Iroquois culture is very melting pot anyway).

I also realize, butterflies :D when it comes to the Oregon Dispute and Alaska Purchase, but these are just aesthetic assumptions we'll come to them when we get there. Not even sure how Alaskans would feel about being bought by Canada ITTL :cool:. I also feel that the NWT borders are unrealistic at this point and I'd have to look more at Athabasca / Saskatchewan borders, but resources are hard to find. It seems like Ontario would want a bigger cut of them. Because it's a hockey-oriented TL however I feel a bit more liberal when it comes to borders, going more for 'coolness' as opposed to realism, and I think I'll defer to that just for interests sake. It's like a provincially balkanized Canada which is, I admit a fairly interesting prospect given how conservative we've been with provinces so far compared to say the U.S.
 
Changes to immigration policies could provide growth in the areas. More research is needed but I seem to recall at the point of departure you are looking at the governments of the time were selective about where they accepted or sought immigrants from. More open immigration policies might help you to reach your goal. Also the heavy industrial development which Ontario and Quebec experienced completely bypassed the Maritime provinces. If NS, NB and PEI developed some more industry, that may also attract some more people to eastern Canada.
 
Top