Challenge: Jewish homeland in Western Sahara

tallwingedgoat · Mar 23, 2010

What would be needed for a homeland for Jews be created in Western Sahara in lieu of in the un-Holyland? Is it even possible to build a country in such arid terrain, and how would the Islamic world react to it?

POD: anytime post 1900

iori · Mar 23, 2010

Do you mean the Western portion of the Sahara generally, or the Moroccan claimed Western Sahara area?

In the latter case it simply would'nt since it has basically no infrastructure or cities and is essentially naked desert with no cultural importance to Jews what-so-ever.

Rakhasa · Mar 23, 2010

Iori said:
Do you mean the Western portion of the Sahara generally, or the Moroccan claimed Western Sahara area?

In the latter case it simply would'nt since it has basically no infrastructure or cities and is essentially naked desert with no cultural importance to Jews what-so-ever.

It does have cities amd imfraestructure (on the coast), and you are presupossing than the Jews have a choice.

The Moroccan Western Sahara was Spanish up to 1975, including the entire Nazi period, when Franco's Spain was very frinely to Hitler.

Simce I have seen a cuople of jewish Madagascar, of all places, on Nazi Victory Timelines, I don't see why it would be stranger a forced relocation in a German ally, one much more accepting of Jews (Franco's ambassador gave a spanish passport to any german jew who could claim or fake Sephardite ancestry)

Niko Malaka · Mar 23, 2010

Rakhasa said:
It does have cities amd imfraestructure (on the coast), and you are presupossing than the Jews have a choice.

The Moroccan Western Sahara was Spanish up to 1975, including the entire Nazi period, when Franco's Spain was very frinely to Hitler.

Simce I have seen a cuople of jewish Madagascar, of all places, on Nazi Victory Timelines, I don't see why it would be stranger a forced relocation in a German ally, one much more accepting of Jews (Franco's ambassador gave a spanish passport to any german jew who could claim or fake Sephardite ancestry)

In that case maybe the saharawis would be in the position of palestinians in OTL...wait...they are in the same position regarding Morocco.

Also, Morocco was not very jewish friendly just after the independence, so if the jewish state is create in a territory they consider theirs, we could have a similar problem than in OTL.

On the other hand, I think the bigger emigration of jews from a muslim country to Israel was made by moroccan jews. It could be interesting if they had the jewish state so close.

Keenir · Mar 23, 2010

Niko Malaka said:
In that case maybe the saharawis would be in the position of palestinians in OTL...wait...they are in the same position regarding Morocco.

On the other hand, I think the bigger emigration of jews from a muslim country to Israel was made by moroccan jews. It could be interesting if they had the jewish state so close.

ideal allies of convenience for this ATL's increasing Jewish populace?

Cook · Mar 23, 2010

I see a few difficulties.

The first and biggest being that it wasn’t part of the British Empire, so it’s a bit hard for Baron Rothschild and the Zionist Federation to take a British offer of it seriously. They were offered Uganda (Britain didn’t bother asking the black Ugandans what they thought), Wyndham and the Australian Kimberley (again, didn’t bother asking the independent Dominion of Australia if they’d mind), and Palestine (let’s not go into how that went shall we).

RGB · Mar 24, 2010

But Western Sahara is really rather poor territory. Birobidzhan didn't go that hot, and Birobidzhan's not really too bad at all in comparison. Granted, there was a Stalin to deal with there as well, but even Soviet Jews largely stayed away.

In short, Palestine/Israel is prime territory in addition to holding profound historical meaning, and I doubt any other place would ever match the focus and effort it was able to generate.

Cook · Mar 24, 2010

RGB said:
In short, Palestine/Israel is prime territory in addition to holding profound historical meaning

Glad they didn’t realise how good the Kimberley is.

Dan1988 · Mar 24, 2010

Cook said:
Glad they didn’t realise how good the Kimberley is.

Oh, come on - we know how some people would like to have WA become its own country instead of being "bossed around" by Canberra.

Cook · Mar 24, 2010

Dan1988 said:
Oh, come on - we know how some people would like to have WA become its own country instead of being "bossed around" by Canberra.

I’m just picturing how rich a country of four or five million would be with the wealth or The Kimberleys and probably Pilbara.

Keenir · Mar 24, 2010

Cook said:
I’m just picturing how rich a country of four or five million would be with the wealth or The Kimberleys and probably Pilbara.

croc farming would probably be better than pig farming.

RGB said:
But Western Sahara is really rather poor territory. Birobidzhan didn't go that hot, and Birobidzhan's not really too bad at all in comparison. Granted, there was a Stalin to deal with there as well, but even Soviet Jews largely stayed away.

In short, Palestine/Israel is prime territory in addition to holding profound historical meaning, and I doubt any other place would ever match the focus and effort it was able to generate.

aside from the historical meaning, what's prime about Palestine? (that makes it more prime than Uganda or Australia or Vietnam)

iori · Mar 24, 2010

Keenir said:
aside from the historical meaning, what's prime about Palestine? (that makes it more prime than Uganda or Australia or Vietnam)

It's close to Europe?
It already had an established Jewish population (albeit small)?
It was part of the 'civilized world'?

RGB · Mar 24, 2010

Keenir said:
aside from the historical meaning, what's prime about Palestine? (that makes it more prime than Uganda or Australia or Vietnam)

1. Close to Europe and thus all its markets
2. Seaboard!
3. With a little water, can have pretty decent agriculture
4. Pre-exisiting Jewish population

Uganda: cannot have western agriculture, will probably have to go cash-crop route, no sea access, far inland, total isolation.

Australia's Kimberleys: still badly underpopulated today, little water resources, really far from everywhere.

Vietnam: the Vietnamese wouldn't appreciate it, and my guess is to a much more effectively than the Palestinians. Completely new climate, too.

Birobidzhan only had the winter as a problem, it's otherwise kinda nice. Nobody really went anyway.

Trixtor · Mar 24, 2010

David bar Elias did a zionist Uganda tl. Is that what you're looking for?

Old Airman · Mar 24, 2010

Jewish homeland in Western Sahara ? It would take forceful relocation. W. Sahara is by far lousiest of all alternatives available to European Jews for the nation-building project (and Mizrahi were not that interested in the project at this point). In addition to "Uganda" (it was really a territory of OTL Kenia which had been offered, not Uganda), Australia, Palestine and Birobidzhan being mentioned here, there was Argentine. So, chances of Jews coming to W.S. at their own will is less than zero. So you need some TL with Hitler going Mediterranean instead of Barbarossa and deciding thet dumping Jews in the desert is not bad idea at all.

Also, Morocco was not very jewish friendly just after the independence, so if the jewish state is create in a territory they consider theirs, we could have a similar problem than in OTL.

Morocco is actually one of more philosemitic Arab countries (not that it does say a lot). Anyway, I doubt that Moroccan army is powerful enough to express it displeasure in terms of force in mid-1970s if Jewish W. Sahara came into being in 1940s.

Birobidzhan didn't go that hot, and Birobidzhan's not really too bad at all in comparison. Granted, there was a Stalin to deal with there as well, but even Soviet Jews largely stayed away.

Birobidzhan came into being at rather unfortunate point in history, as far as Jewish asgricultural settlement programs go. All attempts (including OTL Israel) are directly linked to creating a refuge in the time of hardships, and the biggest waves of settlers naturally come from areas with the strongest oppression. However, 1925-1940 was the gold age of Soviet Jewry as far as their place within the society is concerned. They were subjected to same Stalin's antics as anyone else, but Antisemitism was largely absent as coherent policy. And, given a choice between coming to industrial centers and going to chop trees in the Taiga, Soviet Jewry made an obvious choice.

Keenir said:
aside from the historical meaning, what's prime about Palestine?

Nothing, really. But the whole project had been driven by idealism, not economical considerations (ones who were driven by economy went to North America).

Niko Malaka · Mar 25, 2010

Old Airman said:
Morocco is actually one of more philosemitic Arab countries (not that it does say a lot). Anyway, I doubt that Moroccan army is powerful enough to express it displeasure in terms of force in mid-1970s if Jewish W. Sahara came into being in 1940s.

Thousands of moroccan jews left the country just after the independence fearing reprisals by the part of moroccan population, angry with te occupation of Gaza and Cisjordania. And their fears were not paranoia, several attacks against jews and jewish properties were reported once the independece was obtained. Util the late 60's it was prohibited to the jews leave the country (guess why), therefore thousands of them left the country ilegally through Spain and France with the help of Mossad. It's estimated that only through Spain about 20.000 moroccan jews could reach Israel (and some of them stayed here, profiting the citizenship rights granted to sephardics ) I guess that even more passed through France. So, I still think that Morocco was not jewish friendly, as I said, just after the independence.

It's also true that Mohamed V blocked the Vichy attemps to deport the moroccan jews during the WWII, but that was before the creation of the State of Israel. In the propossed scenario (of course depending on the POD) probably Mohamed V is going to have serious poblems if he insist in "philosmitic" politics, divorcing himself with an important part of the moroccan population (probably a majority). Anyways, I doubt he would accept any state in a territory that Alui dynasty considers theirs. I agree that Morocco Algeria and Mauritania (if that scenario manages to setle the differences between Morocco and Algeria) are not Egypt, Syria and Jordan in militar terms (and not militar terms), but I think we can asusme that everything would be similar to OTL but with less intensity, since the Western Sahara can't sustain as much population as Palestina.

But I agree that the possibility to something like a jewish Western Sahara happening is very very remote, although I also agree with Rakhasa that is not ASB.

Cheers

Keenir · Mar 25, 2010

Niko Malaka said:
In the propossed scenario (of course depending on the POD) probably Mohamed V is going to have serious poblems if he insist in "philosmitic" politics, divorcing himself with an important part of the moroccan population

the important question is, how long will he rule, after he tells Hitler "No, I won't let you do that." ?

Old Airman said:
Nothing, really. But the whole project had been driven by idealism, not economical considerations (ones who were driven by economy went to North America).

ah. thank you for that; it was the "prime" part that puzzled/baffled me.

RGB said:
1. Close to Europe and thus all its markets
2. Seaboard!
3. With a little water, can have pretty decent agriculture
4. Pre-exisiting Jewish population

same for the Saharans.

Uganda: cannot have western agriculture, will probably have to go cash-crop route, no sea access, far inland, total isolation.

...rather like some central European, Asian, and African nations, then.
(heck, how does Kansas stay afloat?)

they could probably find something to grow.

Vietnam: the Vietnamese wouldn't appreciate it, and my guess is to a much more effectively than the Palestinians. Completely new climate too.

for a German Jew, so was Palestine.

wasn't there a socialist element in the Jews who moved to Palestine? they might make common cause with Ho Chi Minh and the others.

Birobidzhan only had the winter as a problem, it's otherwise kinda nice. Nobody really went anyway.

Iori said:
It's close to Europe?
It already had an established Jewish population (albeit small)?
It was part of the 'civilized world'?

like the song says, cause two out of three ain't bad, because those are the same things this Saharan nation has.

iori · Mar 25, 2010

Keenir said:
like the song says, cause two out of three ain't bad, because those are the same things this Saharan nation has.

Well it would meet the close to Europe one, but I don't think it had it's own Jewish population and I certainly don't think it was consiered part of the 'civilized world'.

Cook · Mar 25, 2010

Keenir said:
croc farming would probably be better than pig farming.

Given the rate the Persian Gulf’s popping up on the horizon off Dampier, plus Iron Ore and the world’s biggest Uranium deposits, and we’re only just starting to tap the Kimberley I’d say that if Rothschild had accepted the deal they’d be miles ahead by now.
You’d have had the Zionist nation slugging it out with Saudi etc for leadership of OPEC, amongst other things.

RGB · Mar 26, 2010

Cook said:
You’d have had the Zionist nation slugging it out with Saudi etc for leadership of OPEC, amongst other things.

Grin.

That would be funny.