What would be the consequences of Canada falling to the USA in the ARW?
- Thread starter Boom22
- Start date
US-UK relations would be better from the start. You may see an early end to slavery in the US. The Napoleonic Wars would be basically unchanged though Britain probably won't be distracted by the War of 1812(which is most likely butterflied away). Major WWI butterflies though with greater German gains on the western front.
Sachyriel
Banned
1. Britain loses money.
That's number one. The biggest one I could think of.
2. France doesn't like America even more.
You know, harming Quebec is like punching an old friend of France. I think.
3. Spain clamps down on it's own colonies more.
Because it would be big news. From Labrador to Georgia, big confederation of angry colonists and that's in the more economically stimulated part of the new world.
4. Portugal does like Spain does.
5. In fact every nation probably does.
That's number one. The biggest one I could think of.
2. France doesn't like America even more.
You know, harming Quebec is like punching an old friend of France. I think.
3. Spain clamps down on it's own colonies more.
Because it would be big news. From Labrador to Georgia, big confederation of angry colonists and that's in the more economically stimulated part of the new world.
4. Portugal does like Spain does.
5. In fact every nation probably does.
Would the newfound dislike of the USA prevent the Louisiana Purchase? oculd war be foreseeable if America tries to crush Quebecois culture?
Sachyriel
Banned
I don't think they would set their sights that far. In fact I'd think someone would be able to spin this politically so the blame falls on another colonizing European nation and they start a War of Re-compensation for the Decolonization of North America. Sad but true (and false
) I'd say.1 - War is shorter, No Spanish entry, US gains Florida, Bahamas, Bermuda, along with Quebec & Maritimes.. [B & B were Colonial Supporters]
2 - No post war British support NW Indians [GLakes], No Spanish Support SE indians [5 Civilised Tribes]
3 - No Jay Treaty [ No- Damn John Jay, and Damn anyone who supports John Jay]
4 - Slightly Slower Movement west into Ohio River Valley, as More Americans move North into Canada Instead, [what the line of 1763 was suppose to accomplish]
5 - Slightly faster movement west along the Florida Gulf Coast.
6 - With B & B Part of the US, whe have a larger Navy from the Start, More likely XYZ Affair goes Hot.
7 - XYZ Affair spirals out to include Spain [French Ally]. In 1799~1800?, the US takes New Orleans, Louisiana, Texas from Spain.
8 - No Louisiana purchase - means France doesn't get this Money, so no Invasion of Russia in 1812.
9 - Since 1790 the US has been paying the Barbary Coast Pirates, However in 1806 they decide to double the Fees.
The Larger more experienced [ITTL] US Navy has a Much Shorter then OTL Barbary War.
10 - As Both NEngland and the Maritimes are under the US Flag, the US has a much Larger Merchant Fleet, However the larger US navy prevents Britain from adopting the policy of Impressment of American Sailors.
11 - Larger US Merchant Marine, means more Smugglers in Spanish America, 2nd Spanish American war breaks out early 1810's.
US moves to Support American Liberation Movements, If you hadn't had the US take Texas in Ist War, the US gains Texas in the Second. Mexico/ other Spanish American areas, become independent.
2 - No post war British support NW Indians [GLakes], No Spanish Support SE indians [5 Civilised Tribes]
3 - No Jay Treaty [ No- Damn John Jay, and Damn anyone who supports John Jay]
4 - Slightly Slower Movement west into Ohio River Valley, as More Americans move North into Canada Instead, [what the line of 1763 was suppose to accomplish]
5 - Slightly faster movement west along the Florida Gulf Coast.
6 - With B & B Part of the US, whe have a larger Navy from the Start, More likely XYZ Affair goes Hot.
7 - XYZ Affair spirals out to include Spain [French Ally]. In 1799~1800?, the US takes New Orleans, Louisiana, Texas from Spain.
8 - No Louisiana purchase - means France doesn't get this Money, so no Invasion of Russia in 1812.
9 - Since 1790 the US has been paying the Barbary Coast Pirates, However in 1806 they decide to double the Fees.
The Larger more experienced [ITTL] US Navy has a Much Shorter then OTL Barbary War.
10 - As Both NEngland and the Maritimes are under the US Flag, the US has a much Larger Merchant Fleet, However the larger US navy prevents Britain from adopting the policy of Impressment of American Sailors.
11 - Larger US Merchant Marine, means more Smugglers in Spanish America, 2nd Spanish American war breaks out early 1810's.
US moves to Support American Liberation Movements, If you hadn't had the US take Texas in Ist War, the US gains Texas in the Second. Mexico/ other Spanish American areas, become independent.
Alex Richards
Donor
Sorry, unfamiliar with full name.
And it probably wouldn't be the Drakaverse. Striling forgets that many of the loyalists were from non-slaveholding areas, more so here, and that they wouldn't start in South Africa (instutionalised rasicm, yes, outright slavery, no.)
Would they? They might have supported the colonists but they were cut off from the mainland and the Americans didn't have the naval capacity to invade them. If the British even sensed an American fleet forming, then they would come down on it like a heap of bricks, and if the islands revolted themselves, then being islands they would be far easier for a few British regiments to pacify and occupy, which the British couldn't do with the American countryside. I think the British could basically afford with the islands to just dig their heels in and keep control. The Americans would then have no leg to stand on to demand the islands be ceded too.
You don't think idk, an America controlling all of North America might completely butterfly away WW1 as we know it?
http://www.redcoat.me.uk/bermuda.htm
Who knows what coulda happened in those ten minutes.
http://books.google.com/books?id=UG-62GnAbD8C&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=Battle+of+Nassau+1782&source=web&ots=nFu4dZdTeL&sig=yoR3QBcZcvGrlVaq0LFI0FDnIGA&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result#v=onepage&q=Battle%20of%20Nassau%201782&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=UG...ult#v=onepage&q=Battle of Nassau 1782&f=false
http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/escorts/de1057.htm
And the Bahamas. Only a lucky frantic signal kept Rathburn from ambushing the British ship sent to relieve in the 1778 capture...and he and his men were welcomed and entertained by the Bahamians. AND it's worth noting American Loyalists led by Deveaux-but Americans nonetheless-captured Nassau from Spain nine days after the Treaty of Paris 1783 was finalized.
These islands were only majorly fortified well after the ARW. It's a long shot to have 'em be part of the USA, but it's a shot nonetheless. They only gained strategic importance and major population boosts post-ARW, after all.
America was traditionally isolationist, which means it won't be affecting other places in the first place, sent its first troops for a (major, that is) war overseas in 1898, whilst Canada did the same in the Second Boer War-so it to wouldn't affect much outside North America.
Considering there's usually plenty of talk of Britain pondering if Canada might well yet fall to America in some way into the 19th century? It might butterfly WW1, but it'll still happen and still be a hell of a horrorshow broadly similar to ours.
But you yourself have recognised the butterflies, saying that the war would be shorter. The war wouldn't continue the same way, and with the British likely kicked off the continent far sooner, there's a lot of free regiments with plenty of time on their hands to reoccupy islands beginning with the letter B...
Well in 1776 the US did occupy Bahamas for a short time.. and the Spanish Occupied the Bahamas in 1781.
OTL the British did consider a larger withdraw from NAmerica, but were talked out of it by the French.
Given a shorter war and more complete victory on the ground, , I can see a more extensive Victory for the Americans in Paris.
One place that has been suggested before is British Central America.
Many who moved to Canada, OTL spent the next several years, Moving Back.
I can see a lot moving West/North Frontier, However in this case, [shorter war] I believe most would just hanker down and ride it out. [American Tory influence in US Party's]
Yes, but they might instead go to the OTHER West Indian Islands in the Lesser Antilles, not the (at the time) relatively less valuable Bermudas and Bahamas...the British had to split their forces and give priority to other places.
Remember France entered the war in 1778 and Spain in 1779. Notice Rathburn took the Bahamas in '78, and Bermuda got saved in the nick of time in '79-and by one ship each, compared to the entire fleets of all the European powers that were going about Barbados, the Leeward Islands, Guadeloupe, etc at this time in the Lesser Antilles proper. I would say it's almost dumb luck of sorts the B and B's were kept British...of course, the flip side is dumb luck was what caused the USA in the mainland to exist in the first place.
It always felt like a variable that could make the ARW bigger or smaller across North America one way or the other if you tip this or that just right.