Best POD for Islam in Southern Italy

[8Deer]

I've been reading the Wikipedia article "History of Islam in southern Italy" and it's really piqued my interest. So I wanted to ask: what is the best POD for Islam being more successful in Italy? This includes Sicily.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The first true conquest expedition was launched in 740: in that year the Muslim prince Habib, who had participated on the 728 attack, successfully captured Syracuse. Ready to conquer the whole island, they were however forced to return to Tunisia by a Berber revolt

This seems interesting, but there isn't really much information to go on... And it's from Wikipedia

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Originally Posted by 8Deer

I've been reading the Wikipedia article "History of Islam in southern Italy" and it's really piqued my interest. So I wanted to ask: what is the best POD for Islam being more successful in Italy? This includes Sicily.



This seems interesting, but there isn't really much information to go on... And it's from Wikipedia

Probably when Sicily was taken long-term in OTL - perhaps that could spread to the Southern part of Italy.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by 8Deer

I've been reading the Wikipedia article "History of Islam in southern Italy" and it's really piqued my interest. So I wanted to ask: what is the best POD for Islam being more successful in Italy? This includes Sicily.

The Norman rulers of Sicily were very tolerant of their diverse subjects. If they continued to rule Sicily (or some variant of the Kingdom of Two Sicilies), you could likely get Islam as a significant minority faith there. Is that enough?

[Admiral Brown]

What happen with Islam in Sicily dhen it "returned" to Christian hands IOTL? Were they forced to convert or leave, as it happened later in Spain? What percentage of the population was Islamic at its peak?

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...2.80.931091.29

The Norman Robert Guiscard, son of Tancred, invaded Sicily in 1060. The island was split between three Arab emirs, and the sizeable Christian population rose up against the ruling Muslims. One year later Messina fell, and in 1072, Palermo was taken by the Normans.[15] The loss of the cities, each with a splendid harbor, dealt a severe blow to Muslim power on the island. Eventually all of Sicily was taken. In 1091, Noto in the southern tip of Sicily and the island of Malta, the last Arab stongholds, fell to the Christians. By the 11th century Muslim power in the Mediterranean had begun to wane.[16]
The Norman Kingdom of Sicily under Roger II was characterised by its multi-ethnic nature and religious tolerance.[17] Normans, Jews, Muslim Arabs (Berbers and "Persians" enclosed), Byzantine Greeks, Longobards and "native" Sicilians lived in harmony.[18][19] Rather than exterminate the Muslims of Sicily, the Roger II's grandson Emperor Frederick II of Hohenstaufen (1215—1250) allowed them to settle on the mainland and build mosques.[citation needed][dubious – discuss] Not least, he enlisted them in his — Christian — army and even into his personal bodyguards.[20][21]
Many repressive measures, passed by Frederick II, were introduced in order to please the Popes who could not tolerate Islam being practiced in the heart of Christendom,[22] which resulted in a rebellion of Sicily's Muslims.[23] This in turn triggered organized resistance and systematic reprisals[24] and marked the final chapter of Islam in Sicily. The Muslim problem characterized Hohenstaufen rule in Sicily under Henry VI and his son Frederick II. The annihilation of Islam in Sicily was completed by the late 1240s, when the final deportations to Lucera took place.[25]

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I know the wiki article doesn't give percentages.


Maybe a good PoD would be that that Norman family stays King and never tries for Emperor,then they wouldn't need papal approval as much. Heck, if they play it right, they could play off Byzantium and Rome, switching 'faith' as needed for political purposes....

[Boto von Ageduch]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Heck, if they play it right, they could play off Byzantium and Rome, switching 'faith' as needed for political purposes....

Tell me again, which of these two was the Muslim one?

Or did you mean religious flexibility of the ruler allows for religious tolerance
towards the subjects?

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Boto von Ageduch

Tell me again, which of these two was the Muslim one?

Or did you mean religious flexibility of the ruler allows for religious tolerance
towards the subjects?

Friedrich, as Emperor passed anti-Muslim laws to please the pope, and had to do it because he needed the pope. If *Roger V feels too much pressure from the pope, he could threaten to change allegiance. Actually a king of a diverse population like that might not feel a lot of pressure from the pope anyway.

Certainly the original Roger was incredibly tolerant.

Having a nominally Christian ruler might be the best solution for the Muslim population, as it avoids the chance of a Crusade being called, which would likely happen if there were a Muslim power in charge.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Thanks, now I see!

[8Deer]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Maybe a good PoD would be that that Norman family stays King and never tries for Emperor,then they wouldn't need papal approval as much. Heck, if they play it right, they could play off Byzantium and Rome, switching 'faith' as needed for political purposes....

You mean Robert Guiscard, when he invaded the Byzantine Empire in 1081?

These are all interesting suggestions about the Normans, but I can't help but think that any Muslims under Christian rule would dissapear eventually. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_...ment_of_Lucera

[Ridwan Asher]

Wonder why there hasn't any mentioning of the Aghlabids....