Largest possible non-Nazi Germany

[Alternate History Geek]

What is the largest possible non-Nazi Germany with a post-1700 POD?

[Zmflavius]

Nazi Greater German Reich.

[B_Munro]

Well, victorious Third Reichs tend to skate on the edge of ASB, but how about "largest possible Germany not based on genocide of Slavs to the east?" instead, so we don't argue about it?

I think Jared's mega-Germany in "Decades of Darkness" is about as large as you can get.

Bruce

[Alternate History Geek]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Well, victorious Third Reichs tend to skate on the edge of ASB, but how about "largest possible Germany not based on genocide of Slavs to the east?" instead, so we don't argue about it?

OK - sure.

[MrHaakwood]

Successfully 1848 Revolution is a good starting point

[katchen]

A POD of 1700 does open up some possibilities, albeit remote ones. An outright Prussian defeat of Charles XII in the initial stages of what became the Great Northern War (which started over Sweden's attempt to annex Lithuania ) would give the Prussian State and from that, the German Reich, a greater land area in Europe than any other scenario. I'm not saying it would be easy. Russia would need to be fended off, for one thing. But a Prussia aiming at simply keeping what it had just acquired instead of expanding into Poland would be difficult for Peter the Great to defeat, since Peter's entire strategy depends on luring an invading army deep enough into Russia/Poland to strain it's supply lines.
If Prussia got Sweden in the 18th Century, it likely would assimilate Sweden simply because there are so many more Germans than Swedes and Finns. Norway as well, if not Denmark would likely be conquered as well.
If that occurred, Prussian assimilation of Scandinavia would be well on it's way to being a done deal by the time of the Napoleonic Wars. As one of the nations resisting Napoleon, Prussia might well keep all of it's territory around the Baltic, even against Russia's designs. And incorporate Scandinavia into a Greater German Reich by1870.
Perhaps further expansion into Karelia, Archangel and the Northern Dvina-Pechora to the Ob might be possible in the event of Prussian participation in the Crimean War. There is much land there which is empty yet just becoming arable due to Global Warming out of the Little Ice Age. As long as Prussia avoided trying to annex any densely populated non-German areas, it likely could expand successfully all the way to the Urals east of Finland. This would be the greatest possiblly sized German Reich, at least in terms of land area.

[pompejus]

Well, easiest to add are probably the three countries that were actualy willing to join Germany, Luxemburg, Lichtenstein and Austria (possibly including Slovenia, Sopron, Bratislava, south Tirol, Triest and Bohemia/Moravia). If you include Austria, then you can include Hungary (including transylvania, Sovakia, etc). Germany can go on a conquering spree and conquer non German nations, like the Netherlands, Belgium, Switserland, Denmark, (Russian) Poland, parts of France (like Lorraine, Flanders, etc). If they are succesful, you already have a pretty big Germany, that has managed to piss of every European neighbour.

[katchen]

But Scandinavia has more land area.

[Shard]

Originally Posted by katchen

But Scandinavia has more land area.

It's not so much as land area that is useful, but population and resources. Technology can simply be considered s a multiplier of both. Land is only relevant* so long as it can provide one or the other. Otherwise, Russia should have crushed Germany w/o being invaded, and Canada should be a super power instead of the USA, and China should have fended of the invasion easily.

*It's also relevant if countries march towards your capital, but fighting a war on your own lands is not exactly helpful to the country's health. Case in point: France after WW1, despite being a victor(well, a Pyrrhic one).

[VictorLaszlo]

All of the Germanies in the 18th century had a population larger than Scandinavia, Prussia did not. After the 30 Years War Prussia was underpopulated to a point, that it invited immigrants from other european countries, especially religious refugees like the Hugenots (this is why french names are quite common in Brandenburg to this very day) or the Czech and Moravian Brethren.

Furthermore the problem with any POD prior to 1800 is that it might either butterfly away the french revolution altogether or, in its' process, the rise of Napoleon Bonaparte and, as a consequence thereof, the Napoleonic wars and conquests and thus the very rise of german nationalism and desire for a unified German state in the first place.

[The B]

Some sort of pan-Germanic union is always to be considered.

[Zmflavius]

Originally Posted by Shard

It's not so much as land area that is useful, but population and resources. Technology can simply be considered s a multiplier of both. Land is only relevant* so long as it can provide one or the other. Otherwise, Russia should have crushed Germany w/o being invaded, and Canada should be a super power instead of the USA, and China should have fended of the invasion easily.

*It's also relevant if countries march towards your capital, but fighting a war on your own lands is not exactly helpful to the country's health. Case in point: France after WW1, despite being a victor(well, a Pyrrhic one).

Yeah, but the OP's only qualifier was the largest in land area size.

[isabella]

Biggest realistic unite Germany?
For me is a Germany united from Austria and not Prussia (ATL Germany will be OTL Germany + Austria and Bohemia, and the German speaking italian territories) and then crush France in battle and retake other lost imperial (HRE) territories (Alsace, Lorraine, maybe Luxembourg) and convince Netherlands, Belgium ans Switzerland to join the Empire... The

[Westphalian]

With a PoD of 1700 or later, permanent gains in the west seem impossible - the Dutch and Swiss are out, and long-term expansion into big parts France seems ASB.
Going East: A Vienna-based Germany that includes Hungary an even the Danube principalities seems rather easy, and including something close to the Polich part of the PLC (like the Autrian and Prussianparts of the partition) would be possible, too.
Going North: 1700 is not quite to late to have a German dynasty inherit either the Swedish or the Danish-Norwegian throne and later uniting Germany based on its royal prestige. But it would be rather difficult.
Going South: Basically, only Austria or Bavaria could expand into Italy, and the latter just after the acquisition of Tyrol from a weakened Austria. And even then, the Lombard cities would not become German in any meaningful way, IMO.

[ingemann]

Realistic you could create a Austria lead Germany which included Balkan, Poland 1648 Germany western border and was in union with Italy with a POD of 1700. It would demand some luck but it's quite possible. It would just demand that the Habsburg got some luck and pushed harder against France in the Spanish Succession War.

[NHBL]

If Germany managed to force a status quo ante bellum in the west, and Brest-Livosk stands in the east, Germany's fairly large. Then unify with Austria, and you're on the way.

Of course, if one or more colonies get incorporated into Germany proper--perhaps as propaganda, or a means of meeting agreements to get rid of colonies, or something, that's even bigger....

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by NHBL

If Germany managed to force a status quo ante bellum in the west, and Brest-Livosk stands in the east, Germany's fairly large. Then unify with Austria, and you're on the way.

Of course, if one or more colonies get incorporated into Germany proper--perhaps as propaganda, or a means of meeting agreements to get rid of colonies, or something, that's even bigger....

Well, Southwest Africa/Namibia had a pretty low native population (lower after the post-Herero massacres, no doubt ), and could probably be Germanized: that gives you another 318,695 square miles...

Bruce

[thenewfoundlander1993]

Originally Posted by B_Munro

Well, Southwest Africa/Namibia had a pretty low native population (lower after the post-Herero massacres, no doubt ), and could probably be Germanized: that gives you another 318,695 square miles...

Bruce

Would that be integrated into Germany itself though, or would it become more like a second South Africa, with the settler population eventually developing its own identity and language?

[Pericles]

Does mega-Austria count as mega-Germany?

[B_Munro]

Originally Posted by thenewfoundlander1993

Would that be integrated into Germany itself though, or would it become more like a second South Africa, with the settler population eventually developing its own identity and language?

The Boers had a couple hundred years in a pre-telegraph, sailing ship era to grow apart from the Dutch...colonization would be mostly 20th century in this context.

Bruce