Deseret

I'm trying to come up with a scenario that isn't completely ASB that would explain the Southwestern United States being a Mormon theocracy under the direct control of the Mormon church. I have thought about this alot, perhaps combining it with Nazi victory in World War II (which would explain the United State's dissolution) or something like that. Before the creation of Utah territory, the territorial government of 'Deseret' and the Mormon church were largely synonymous (even in the early days of Utah territory); but I really don't want to go back that far for POD. Does the idea itself sound ASB? Its just that its happened before and I am very fascinated with the 'what if' idea if they had ever had a fully independent state in the American Southwest. How this would have effected their development in their theology, how this would have affected the culture of the Southwest and what would it be like if Arizona, Utah, Colorado and New Mexico were part of a Mormon Iran?

I think I have a good way to explain how it would work once it was there (a relatively nice place to be, even for 'gentiles,'); but I have yet to come up with an explanation that isn't entirely ASB.

Might be worth exploring a way to delay the beginning of the Mexican-American War. I say that because I don't see any reasonable PoD which causes Mexico to win or finish even once the war kicks off. Maybe a few more members of Congress find an excuse to oppose the war.

If there is a delay, then perhaps the Saints are well-enough established that they either gain their own independence or they augment the Mexican Army during the war (probably the former - I throw in the latter just for brainstorming).

The thing about POD before 1896: it would mean that polygamy would have survived as a doctrine, leading to a radically different society.

You'd almost have to balkanize the Southwest for this to have a chance... meaning Texas remains independent and California actually achieves independent.

There's got to be some sort of buffer between the mainland US and any Deseret. The US public has made it clear at this point in history what they think of the Mormon church. No Mormon nation will survive as long as the US is the dominant force in the area.

If Texas and California were independent, it might have a chance. So long as they kept to an area around Salt Lake, and kept to themselves, they could be overlooked.

So them having all of New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado would be unreasonable?

What would combining it with a Germany victory in WW2 scenario do to the prospect?

jorbian said:

What would combining it with a Germany victory in WW2 scenario do to the prospect?

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Do Moromons want a Deseret by that point, or are they content with being Americans?

darthbalmung said:

Do Moromons want a Deseret by that point, or are they content with being Americans?

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Nazis are in Canada and New England, and the Japanese are bombing California, Washington and Alaska. There are still people around who took the Temple rituals when they prescribed oaths of vengeance against the United States and they are in high leadership of the Church. Does it sound that unreasonable?

A post 1900 Deseret... outside of the radical circumstances of something like TL-191, is rather unreasonable.

As for a Deseret consisting of Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico... there weren't enough Mormons then or later to occupy all that area. You'd need to massively convert or remove a lot of people for that to happen... again unlikely, even with Nazis and Japs ramaging across America.

The Nazis and Japanese would likely be harder on them than the US public ever was.

I could only see this happening with a much earlier POD, such as the South prevailing in the Civil War. Deseret could survive as its own "country," perhaps in Confederation with either the US or Confederacy. I don't see how Deseret would be much larger than present-day Utah, unless the preservation of polygamy occurs and results and a much higher population (even without polygamy, Mormons have large families).

lothaw said:

A post 1900 Deseret... outside of the radical circumstances of something like TL-191, is rather unreasonable.

As for a Deseret consisting of Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico... there weren't enough Mormons then or later to occupy all that area. You'd need to massively convert or remove a lot of people for that to happen... again unlikely, even with Nazis and Japs ramaging across America.

The Nazis and Japanese would likely be harder on them than the US public ever was.

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They're still a major minority in those areas. Here in Northern Arizona, they are 12% of the total population (whites controlled South Africa even when they were like 1% of the population). And I think the Nazis might not have been that hard on them, as pre-1976, Racism was an official doctrine of the church, which means that if the Nazis were looking for collaborators, it might have been one of the first places they looked.

jorbian said:

They're still a major minority in those areas. Here in Northern Arizona, they are 12% of the total population (whites controlled South Africa even when they were like 1% of the population). And I think the Nazis might not have been that hard on them, as pre-1976, Racism was an official doctrine of the church, which means that if the Nazis were looking for collaborators, it might have been one of the first places they looked.

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Hardly - Whites constituted ~10% of the population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_South_Africa
states that in 2007 whites were still 9.1%

jorbian said:

They're still a major minority in those areas. Here in Northern Arizona, they are 12% of the total population (whites controlled South Africa even when they were like 1% of the population). And I think the Nazis might not have been that hard on them, as pre-1976, Racism was an official doctrine of the church, which means that if the Nazis were looking for collaborators, it might have been one of the first places they looked.

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In spite of them having a probably atheistic leader who used a state church as a control mechanism?

jorbian said:

They're still a major minority in those areas. Here in Northern Arizona, they are 12% of the total population (whites controlled South Africa even when they were like 1% of the population). And I think the Nazis might not have been that hard on them, as pre-1976, Racism was an official doctrine of the church, which means that if the Nazis were looking for collaborators, it might have been one of the first places they looked.

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OOC: I am not LDS, but I don't think you're being fair to them. I do know LDS people as friends, and this is hard to imagine.

jorbian,

You should check out www.kenzerco.com and click on the "Visit the Aces & Eights Shattered Frontiers official website" link. Aces & Eights is Kenzerco's Western roleplaying game. The history for the alternate Old West of the game includes an independent Deseret.

You can also go to the Aces & Eights section of the forums at kenzerco.com. There is some historical and background discussion there. You might find people who will love to discuss your scenario.

The entire SW is hard but you can have a small Deseret with a mega confederate victory- Europeans come in on the CS side and the US really gets crushed pretty badly. The Mormons decide that this would be a perfect chance to continue their fight for freedom.
Perhaps they will need to join the CSA at first- Confederacy being less pressuring than Union.

Leej said:

The entire SW is hard but you can have a small Deseret with a mega confederate victory- Europeans come in on the CS side and the US really gets crushed pretty badly. The Mormons decide that this would be a perfect chance to continue their fight for freedom.
Perhaps they will need to join the CSA at first- Confederacy being less pressuring than Union.

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The Confederates didnt hold a much better view of Mormonisim than the US dd.

jorbian said:

So them having all of New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado would be unreasonable?

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Very. The only way I could see this happening is (1) for some reason these aren't thought to contain worthwhile mineral wealth and (2) nonetheless, The Republic of California and Texas keep fighting over them anyway, so they decide to let the Mormons have the area as a rump state. Still kinda implausible.

jorbian said:

Nazis are in Canada and New England, and the Japanese are bombing California, Washington and Alaska. There are still people around who took the Temple rituals when they prescribed oaths of vengeance against the United States and they are in high leadership of the Church. Does it sound that unreasonable?

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Yes, even under those circumstances. Like a lot of minority groups in the US, the Mormons took a hyper-patriotic turn in the early 1900s.

Leej said:

The entire SW is hard but you can have a small Deseret with a mega confederate victory- Europeans come in on the CS side and the US really gets crushed pretty badly. The Mormons decide that this would be a perfect chance to continue their fight for freedom.
Perhaps they will need to join the CSA at first- Confederacy being less pressuring than Union.

Click to expand...

Maybe something to that. Instead of "continuing their fight for freedom" directly, the Mormons are more likely to press for statehood, or else. And if this goes awry, then they do it. But even then, Brigham Young being a savvy cat, they are very unlikely to push this to the extreme of secession unless he has some major military reassurances from the South. He can count the troops as well as anyone.