The Falklands War & Vulcans...
- Thread starter MacCaulay
- Start date
MacCaulay
Banned
I read the title and thought of Star Trek.
Well, I had to do something to get the people in the door.
The role of the Vulcans in the Falklands war is rather exaggerated by all means. Their payloads were too low and their raids were largely ineffective against their targets or the repairs were easily carried out by the Argies.
MacCaulay
Banned
Well, I was thinking about that, actually, and I'm digging through my Jane's Defense books trying to find an effective ceiling. I'm not sure if the Sea Darts had the ability to get up that high.
I was actually kind of wondering if the Harriers would have the ability to hit them.
Yeah, one of my first thoughts was that the Black Buck raids were really mroe of a psychological morale boost for the Brits, especially with the fact that it took a decade for the US to break the record for the longest bombing run.
But those things would be based IN Argentina. If they hit Ascension Island, never mind if they did any damage, they'd need to be hit.
In the war, no British units his anything on Argentine soil. To take out the Vulcans, they'd have to make an air raid into Argentina direct. That would change the nature of the war, and they'd have to make a big logistical jump to do it.
It's not so much what damage the Vulcans could do by themselves (though who knows what those things would do if they could actually get some lucky hits against the docks or storage facilities on Ascension), it's the immense logistical headache they'd cause the British who would now be compelled to take them out.
At least, that's what I'm thinking.
If the Argentines had Vulcans, they could have tried to hit the Falklands or South Georgia.
But they may have been shot down. During the war, Sea Dart shot down a Canberra and a Learjet both at 12,000 m (40,000 feet). A Vulcan's service ceiling exceeds this, but if dropping bombs it is likely to be flying much lower - the service ceiling according to Wikipedia is 55,000 to 60,000 feet depending on model - but the Black Buck bombs IIRC were dropped from 10,000 feet. Shooting down a high-flying large bomber, is exactly what Sea Dart was designed for, and probably would have been best at.
There is no way that an Argentine Vulcan would reach Ascension. Remember:
1. it basically needed the whole RAF Victor tanker force to get 1 Vulcan from Ascension to the Falklands and back. The Argentine tanker force was much smaller and less efficient.
2. At the start of the war, the Vulcans were not inflight refueling capable anyway. The refueling equipment had been long removed from the aircraft. While the taskforce was sailing South (after the Argentines had invaded the Falklands). The Vulcans were retrofitted with the inflight refueling equipment, affording RAF engineers scoured every RAF junk yard and stores depot in the UK. The engineering story is a triumph in itself (aside from the mission and inflight refueling aspects) - it is well-described in the book "Vulcan 607", which, by the way, I reviewed here: http://www.operationblackbuck.com/p1_books_vulcan_607.php
If you want a more realistic Falklands bomber scenario, how about the RAF using a Tornado or Buccaneer, flown from Ascension, perhaps even with a JP233 runway denial weapon?
But they may have been shot down. During the war, Sea Dart shot down a Canberra and a Learjet both at 12,000 m (40,000 feet). A Vulcan's service ceiling exceeds this, but if dropping bombs it is likely to be flying much lower - the service ceiling according to Wikipedia is 55,000 to 60,000 feet depending on model - but the Black Buck bombs IIRC were dropped from 10,000 feet. Shooting down a high-flying large bomber, is exactly what Sea Dart was designed for, and probably would have been best at.
There is no way that an Argentine Vulcan would reach Ascension. Remember:
1. it basically needed the whole RAF Victor tanker force to get 1 Vulcan from Ascension to the Falklands and back. The Argentine tanker force was much smaller and less efficient.
2. At the start of the war, the Vulcans were not inflight refueling capable anyway. The refueling equipment had been long removed from the aircraft. While the taskforce was sailing South (after the Argentines had invaded the Falklands). The Vulcans were retrofitted with the inflight refueling equipment, affording RAF engineers scoured every RAF junk yard and stores depot in the UK. The engineering story is a triumph in itself (aside from the mission and inflight refueling aspects) - it is well-described in the book "Vulcan 607", which, by the way, I reviewed here: http://www.operationblackbuck.com/p1_books_vulcan_607.php
If you want a more realistic Falklands bomber scenario, how about the RAF using a Tornado or Buccaneer, flown from Ascension, perhaps even with a JP233 runway denial weapon?
How many of the Vulcans would have been delivered in less than a month ? (ignoring the fact that the civil service/government would take much longer than a month to make such a decision)
I'm not sure what targets the Argentinians could actually hit with the Vulcans anyway. As SunilTanna said, they didn't have the in-flight refueling capability that the RAF had. They also wouldn't have been effective against the actual naval taskforce and the British forces that landed on the Falklands didn't have any large infrastructure targets (such as runways) that could have been attacked by Vulcans.
On the whole, it might have actually helped the British to have sold the Vulcans to Argentina. The Argentinians would have had less money to spend on Exocets, for example.
Cheers,
Nigel.
The Vulcans would only have been of use either AFTER the recapture of the Falklands when an armistice/cease-fire had been negotiated with the surrender of the Argentinians OR during the campaign.
The Argentinians had no major in-flight refuelling which would enable them to reach Ascension. Even if they had, it is possible that there would be defences at Ascension which could have dealt with them given that Britain would know they had them.
The accuracy of the bombing must remain in doubt, the higher you are the less likely you are to hit. The fleet would have been fairly safe. Raids on the attacking forces once onshore would be pretty minimal
The Argentinians had no major in-flight refuelling which would enable them to reach Ascension. Even if they had, it is possible that there would be defences at Ascension which could have dealt with them given that Britain would know they had them.
The accuracy of the bombing must remain in doubt, the higher you are the less likely you are to hit. The fleet would have been fairly safe. Raids on the attacking forces once onshore would be pretty minimal
Waste of time, effot and jet fuel. The RAF strike was useful only in that it was a fairly pointed reminder to the Argentine junta exactly what they had picked a fight with, namely a country that could, if pushed hard enough, lay waste to all of Argentina.
In Argentine hands, all it would have been was some obsolecent bombers making a raid.
In Argentine hands, all it would have been was some obsolecent bombers making a raid.
MacCaulay
Banned
That sort of reminds me of something that the Argentine defense minister at the time once said about the British expectations of their Army:
So...I'm gonna say right off the bat that I had more or less talked myself out of it by the time I went to bed last night, even though I was only on the fence when I posted it. (You just have to post these tidbits when you see them!)
But on final reflection (this is having read 1 book on the Argentinian military during the Falklands, and a bunch on the war), I personally think that the Argentinians could have made inflight refuelling gear if it was needed.
They can design aircraft indigenously, they can probably make refuelling probes and fuel lines.
I will also say that the chances of hitting a significant target in a bombing raid on Ascension, in my mind, are much higher than the Black Buck raids.
We've all got to remember that the airstrips that the bombers dropped on in the Falklands were pretty target-poor environments. If you take a look at the post-strike photos, there was the airstrip...and the airstrip. Hardly any buildings around it, just a grassy field.
On Ascension, you can't throw a ball without hitting something important. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if they were dropping bombs, even one pass, they'd be able hit something.
Though you guys pretty much put the nail in the coffin, it's all for moot if the Argentine junta invades the islands a month after they get the things. They're not really in operational use yet, there's probably not anyone in the air force who would know how to fly them well, and any mission with them would be dodgy.
I read the title and thought of Star Trek.
Yeah, wouldn't the Argentines be more likely to have Romulans?
When would Argentina recieve the Vulcans? With the request being a month before the invasion, I don't see the Vulcans being in Argentina before then. In which case, having the Vulcans in use means a later invasion, if we go by the historical request.
It is an interesting question. What if Argentina had heavy bombers? Chile or Peru had some Tu-22s. Libya used some in her war with Egypt, I believe. That heavy bombers would be available for Argentina to buy? The US won't sell B-52s, I would think. Britain had the Vulcans, Valients, and Victors. The USSR had a number of different planes I can't think of besides the Tu-22.
Hmm, with enough fuel, could the Argentines reach the UK?
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Even if they can build refueling lines and probes, and the planes come early (or the war is later), and they get the training, and everything goes right - they still can not reach Ascension, since they don't have a fleet of tankers. They had 2 Lockheed KC-130H Hercules Tankers in the 1st Air Brigade, and I think that was it.
Flying from Ascension to the Falklands, requires refueling the Vulcan a minimum of 6 times (the Vulcan was refuelled 5 times outward, once on the war back), for which the RAF needed 11 refueling aircraft minimum (because the Victor tankers didn't have the ranger either and had to be refueled - and so would the KC-130H too)
There are bits of Argentina a bit closer to Ascension than MPA is. Still, the closest Vulcan-capable runway in Argentina (according to a cursory look on Google Earth) is Puerto Iguazu airport in the extreme NE of the country. That is 2900 miles from Wideawake Field, as opposed to the Black Buck distance of 3900.
Still impossible for an un-tanked Vulcan, and unlikely-looking overall, although a bit easier. The Argentines would have to have bought enough Vulcans to be able to use most of them as tankers for a single strike aircraft that might well not disable the runway, and would probably be shot down- there were fighters based at Wideawake throughout the war for air defence, despite the fact that the only conceivable threat was carrier-based aircraft or an Entebbe-style commando raid. ITTL, if they know Argentina has Vulcans, they might have more there.
And yes, this would mean a much later invasion- they have to buy the Vulcans, then refit most of them to K.2 tanker standard.
Thande
Donor
I read the title and thought of Star Trek.
Even I did and I'm well aware of the Vulcans' role in the war.
Anyway, on topic: not much difference to the actual war, because Vulcans with conventional bombs turned out not to be very effective, but it would be a big propaganda embarrassment for the British.
Riain
Banned
If the Argies had a handful of 707 based tankers to go with their Vulcans then they could hit Ascension, which as someone else pointed out is 2900 miles from the closest airport. The 707 has a much better fuel offload than the Victor and the shorter distance involved means the diversion options are better. So the fueling eqations the Argies would make are very different to those the Brits did make. However just the 707 tankers themselves would make the regular Arg AF a very much more powerful force without any Vulcans.
Maybe. OTOH, this won't change anything as the exocets the Argentinians had ordered not too long before the invasion were blocked by the french in the airport ( about 60 of them ).
The 6 the argentinians used had been in their inventory for years ( and had trouble because of bad maintenance ). They won't be affected by a decision made a year or two before invasion, let alone a month.
ObWI : as usual whenever anyone brings this up. WHat if the 60 additionnal exocets had been delivered before the invasion.
Another question is why would the Argentinians want to attack the airfield at Ascension. If Britain has sold its Vulkans then Ascension is not being used as a base for attacks on the Falklands or Argentina. All an attack on Ascension would do is widen the scope of the war, which would not be a good thing for Argentina.
Cheers,
Nigel.