Hello I have been looking over this site for a few weeks now and I have seen some great ideas and opinions. So i wanted to see what the broad's opinions of one of my ideas. So could the Grimaldi's (The rules of Monaco) conquer most of southern France and the some of Savoy in the 1400s. Now the Grimadi's can control Monaco but who could they do this. Well this is how I think it would happen. Milan would love some one that the french could fight that is not them and with the Grimaldi's so close and easier to supporting then someone that could not help them when they need them because they are to far alway them. I would also think Spain would help if the Grimaldi's and The Duke Milan would support the spanish claim to the throne of Naples. The English would also not mind to to help put a thorn in France's side
The Kingdom of Monaco
- Thread starter Elrodian
- Start date
The problem is that Monaco is small. It can barely raise a couple of thousand troops, which aren't going to do much to France, and it can't really afford to hire the mercenaries either. Also, it has no claim to anywhere in France, besides maybe a couple of miles of territory which France had slowly incorporated over the years, and contrary to what is commonly believed these days, it was very rare in this era for peace treaties to award land to a victor where that victor didn't have some semblance of family claim, strong or very weak, to it. The exceptions generally were extenuating circumstances - skipping forward 300 years, Gibraltar, for example, was seized in the name of the Archduke of Austria as King of Spain and only kept by the British when it became clear that the Austrians would not take Spain, whereupon they decided it was too useful a piece of land to simply hand back. If it weren't claimed for Austria, they would never have grabbed it. Monaco was too peripheral a state in this era, very much in the French sphere of influence, so it would just be too weak to be worthy as an ally. Should it try to create trouble, supported by France's enemies or not, it would just be swatted by a passing French army.
A very good point but after I posted this, I started to look into the Grimaldi's. After an hour or two I found some information that would explain the reason Spain would be more willing to help and the Grimaldi's right to land in the French riviera. Here is the site
http://www.grimaldi.org/#grimaldo
I would love to really go in to the details of how this new information has help me to change my mind about what I first posted but I have a flight to Lon den a 9 and it is 1:23 PM where I live, so I will reply when I get back.
Thank you very much for the reply to my post.
http://www.grimaldi.org/#grimaldo
I would love to really go in to the details of how this new information has help me to change my mind about what I first posted but I have a flight to Lon den a 9 and it is 1:23 PM where I live, so I will reply when I get back.
Thank you very much for the reply to my post.
So I have just gotten back last night, so sorry for the wait if people where waiting or not. Now, from site that I posted before, it shows that if the Grimaldi's of Monaco do have a lot of support form the other Grimaldi's in the lands around them. I think the other branches of the family would support them because it would give the other branches more power with out the threat of over lords that would kill them if they get a lot of power. What do you on the boards think.
It's certainly an interesting tale. I still think it's pushing it somewhat, though. Conquering a number of tiny fiefs in Provence is one thing, but that is a relatively easy accomplishment for someone in the right situation. The fiefdoms of Italy were generally weak, with tiny military capacity and little in the way of defensive alliances aside from dealings with neighbouring territories. If a minor noble who is of no real threat to any larger states meddles in their affairs, few will care. France, on the other hand, is a huge state with powerful nobles controlling lots of land rather than small fiefdoms, and with the capacity to raise an army easily of 30,000 to ward off threats, and Monaco could never match that, nor even come close. Also, the support of Grimaldi family branches would help in some respects, but the family is Italianate and it seems most all the Grimaldis were in Italy or Provence, meaning their consequence to France is nil. France was already a huge threat to this region of Italy, too, so even if a few Grimaldis were in possession of fiefs themselves which could raise troops, they would refuse to even consider the idea, since their chances of overcoming France are so tiny and the result of failure would be the forfeit of their land to the French crown and in all probability that area of Italy being overrun by the French. I don't mean to put a dampener on your ideas, but really this was an era when small states just didn't have a chance against bigger states, so they avoided conflict entirely. Indeed, for a state like Monaco you could say that this has always been the case - the size proportions are just too radically different. Monaco must be several thousand times smaller than France, after all.
Now if you wrote a TL about Monaco becoming an Italian power, a la the brief collosal rise of Milan under the Sforza (I think it was them) around 1400...now that's an intriguing, and substantially more plausible, idea...
Now if you wrote a TL about Monaco becoming an Italian power, a la the brief collosal rise of Milan under the Sforza (I think it was them) around 1400...now that's an intriguing, and substantially more plausible, idea...
Honestly, stranger things have happened. Habichtsburg was a single castle in Switzerland when the family first got started, and as late as c. 1400 the family was second to the Luxemburgs (!) in the Empire. The ascent of the Grimaldis would have to start small, with marriages and shady dealings along with some small conquests, and they'd have to gradually reach the point where their conglomeration of fiefs could assert independence from its neighbors. And said conglomeration would not necessarily be called "Kingdom of Monaco," either. It could end up being called Occitania, Gaul, Provence, etc.
A single POD would be hard to find. This would seem to fall squarely in the category of Monacowank. But it does not necessarily have to be completely outrageous.
A single POD would be hard to find. This would seem to fall squarely in the category of Monacowank. But it does not necessarily have to be completely outrageous.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Monaco is small today. There's no reason the dynasty couldn't have taken a different course, maybe a strategic marriage that leads to more substantial territory.
Indeed I've always loved the idea of making the House of Grimaldi a, at the very least, player on the European stage. Most likely the easiest way is via marriage, or have the Grimaldi's align themselves with a major player, and have that major player reward them with land.
Actually they started out with the whole county of Klettgau. I take the point that meteoric rises can happen, but I still think that expanding in France is largely out of the question - there are just not enough small statelets and there's too many powerful nobles for it to work.
Well if the Grimaldi's of Monaco could gain control over the Genoa Grimaldi's land and money or get them to help them a lot (I mean like have the most inept person lead the family and the Monaco Grimaldi's "help" him). The Genoa Grimaldi's were one of the bankers of the Spanish monarchy and so they could use the influence they have with them to give them titles, or land.