Red Ice: Canada goes Bolshevik

Uber_Amoeba

In Canadian history, 1919 is famous for one specific event: the Winnipeg General Strike. Labourers from across the country met to form 'One Big Union'. The NYT called it 'Bolshevism invades Canada' and the Winnipeg Free Press blamed it on the jews. The government stepped in, and tried to quell the crisis by arresting the union leaders on charges of sedition. Naturally, everything plitely wound down from there and - oh wait, no, it lead to something called 'Bloody Saturday'. Wonder what that's about.

Anyway, so let's say that the government response doesn't just piss off Canada's disenfranchised lower-class -- it outrages, and, more importantly, radicalizes them. A couple charismatic Commies taking over the movement for their own purposes should do, really.

So what if the General Strike lead to a Canadian Revolution? It's not like Canada is too in love with democracy to allow it- Quebec's only a few years away from bringing in the Fascist Duplessis government until the '60s.

The interesting thing is that, if this revolution proved successful (and it would, since otherwise this would be a shitty what-if) both America and the British Empire would have a fucking conniption. But the Canadians' proletarian brethren are only an Alaska away...

Discuss!:)
 

Blue Max

The sequel to this situation is titled "War Plan Red".

With the MASSIVE backlash a radical government would create, this might be a situation where Canada screws up so badly they wind up joining the USA.
 
Fearless Leader

Fearless Leader

Donor
Hate to piss on your parade but this is not going to happen.

As bad as things got in Canada following the war, they were nowhere near as bad as Russia or even sites of failed communist revolutions. Canada lacked, and has always lacked the pre-requisite conditions (as proven by hindsight not by Marx) for a communist revolution.

The closest thing you could get (IMO) to a commie Canada would to have the Progressive Party of the 1920's benefit from some charismatic leaders and a unified ideology. This brings them into power in the 1930's following the Great Depression and results in Canada getting an amped up New Deal instead of the half-assed one it got in OTL.
 

Mike Stearns

I disagree. If the Canadian government handled this in the wrong way, then they could have serious problems when the the troops come home in 1918. By the end of the war, the Canadian Corp was considered the creme de la creme of Britain's Imperial armies and was utterly feared by the Germans. If the Canadian Army comes home and decides to side with the strikers, the Canadian goverment could find itself in very deep trouble.
 

dreadnought jenkins

Uber_Amoeba said:
In Canadian history, 1919 is famous for one specific event: the Winnipeg General Strike. Labourers from across the country met to form 'One Big Union'. The NYT called it 'Bolshevism invades Canada' and the Winnipeg Free Press blamed it on the jews. The government stepped in, and tried to quell the crisis by arresting the union leaders on charges of sedition. Naturally, everything plitely wound down from there and - oh wait, no, it lead to something called 'Bloody Saturday'. Wonder what that's about.

Anyway, so let's say that the government response doesn't just piss off Canada's disenfranchised lower-class -- it outrages, and, more importantly, radicalizes them. A couple charismatic Commies taking over the movement for their own purposes should do, really.

So what if the General Strike lead to a Canadian Revolution? It's not like Canada is too in love with democracy to allow it- Quebec's only a few years away from bringing in the Fascist Duplessis government until the '60s.

The interesting thing is that, if this revolution proved successful (and it would, since otherwise this would be a shitty what-if) both America and the British Empire would have a fucking conniption. But the Canadians' proletarian brethren are only an Alaska away...

Discuss!:)
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I'm sorry, but this would never succeed.

First, Canada was in love with democracy. She just gave women the vote in the last election. Also, Duplessis was an ass yes, but the Grande Noirceur is more of a myth then anything else.

Secondly, the people of Canada were largely happy. They had the option of cheap farm land, and they weren't repressed. Canada was just as much of a progressive democracy as the United States or Britain.

Thirdly, neither Britain, America, or the Canadian army would put up with a Communist revolution. Allied forces were deployed (including regiments from the Canadian army) to Archangle to try and fight the Red Russians during the civil war (but they pulled out later). Coming back home to find the threat right there woudn't make many Canadian soldiers happy. Nor would it make Britain happy. If Britain was willing to try and intervene in Russia, you can bet that she'll move in to help her Canadian dominion who'll probably be calling for aid, since Ottawa wouldn't take "seditious treason" lying down.

Finally, the Russians could never intervene. Revolutionary Russia would remain weak in the east for years after the war and Alaska is an effective barrier. I doubt neither America nor Japan would let a Communist fleat move across the Pacific to Canada, and nor would Britain for that matter.

Really, all a worse General Strike is going to do is ruin socialism in Canada for decades afterwords, not to mention what British intervention might do for Canadian independence.
 

bm79

dreadnought jenkins said:
I'm sorry, but this would never succeed.

First, Canada was in love with democracy. She just gave women the vote in the last election. Also, Duplessis was an ass yes, but the Grande Noirceur is more of a myth then anything else.

Secondly, the people of Canada were largely happy. They had the option of cheap farm land, and they weren't repressed. Canada was just as much of a progressive democracy as the United States or Britain.

Thirdly, neither Britain, America, or the Canadian army would put up with a Communist revolution. Allied forces were deployed (including regiments from the Canadian army) to Archangle to try and fight the Red Russians during the civil war (but they pulled out later). Coming back home to find the threat right there woudn't make many Canadian soldiers happy. Nor would it make Britain happy. If Britain was willing to try and intervene in Russia, you can bet that she'll move in to help her Canadian dominion who'll probably be calling for aid, since Ottawa wouldn't take "seditious treason" lying down.

Finally, the Russians could never intervene. Revolutionary Russia would remain weak in the east for years after the war and Alaska is an effective barrier. I doubt neither America nor Japan would let a Communist fleat move across the Pacific to Canada, and nor would Britain for that matter.

Really, all a worse General Strike is going to do is ruin socialism in Canada for decades afterwords, not to mention what British intervention might do for Canadian independence.
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Seconded on all points, DJ!

I'm actually reading Anthony Read's "The World on Fire: 1919 and the Battle with Bolshevism" right now, so all this is fresh in my memory. The Bolsheviks at this time were only in possession of a triangular-shaped region of european Russia anchored by Petrograd, Kazan, and Astrakhan. Canadian forces were currently fighting Red Army units south of Arkangelsk. Murmansk was also in the hands of the British, Petrograd blockaded, Odessa and the Crimea in French hands, and Vladivostok occupied by the Japanese. There's no way on Earth the Bolsheviks could have given any aid to a Canadian revolution. Besides, Winnipeg is a really crappy place from which to try to lead a nation-wide revolt. All you'd need would be a regiment or so east and west of town along the rail lines to totally bottle up the Reds.
 

CanadianGoose

Banned
Uber_Amoeba said:
Anyway, so let's say that the government response doesn't just piss off
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Uber_Amoeba said:
Canada's disenfranchised lower-class -- it outrages, and, more importantly, radicalizes them. A couple charismatic Commies taking over the movement for their own purposes should do, really.
Click to expand...
I don't think it would be correct to call those potential leaders "Commies" at this point. Radical socialist (or anarcho-syndicalist, in the mould of IWW) labor leaders.

Uber_Amoeba said:
So what if the General Strike lead to a Canadian Revolution? It's not like
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Uber_Amoeba said:
Canada is too in love with democracy to allow it
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Come one, what does love of democracy have to do with loath of really popular revolution. Russian revolution all the way before Lenin came to power was universally considered a feat of popular democracy.

Uber_Amoeba said:
The interesting thing is that, if this revolution proved successful (and it would, since otherwise this would be a shitty what-if)
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I would say that shitty what-if, based on bloody oppression of revolution and quasi-dictatorship following it is much more likely outcome of such event.

Fearless Leader said:
As bad as things got in Canada following the war, they were nowhere near as bad as Russia or even sites of failed communist revolutions.
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Agree.

Mike Stearns said:
If the Canadian Army comes home and decides to side with the strikers, the Canadian goverment could find itself in very deep trouble.
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Big freaking deal. Demobilization will be delayed until mutiny is put down, that's it.

dreadnought jenkins said:
First, Canada was in love with democracy. She just gave women the vote in the last election.
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That is exactly what Russians did after revolution. Universal suffrage. How is this "love" going to affect Canadian feelings about democratic revolution?

dreadnought jenkins said:
Secondly, the people of Canada were largely happy. They had the option of cheap farm land, and they weren't repressed.
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That is important.

dreadnought jenkins said:
Thirdly, neither Britain, America, or the Canadian army would put up with a Communist revolution.
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Army (Canadian, at least) could end up on joinin revolutionaries. Remember, we're talking popular movement, not some foreign diversion.

dreadnought jenkins said:
Allied forces were deployed (including regiments from the Canadian army) to Archangle to try and fight the Red Russians during the civil war (but they pulled out later). Coming back home to find the threat right there woudn't make many Canadian soldiers happy.
Click to expand...
Actually a lot of Entente soldiers came from Russia under influence of revolutionary propaganda. Anyway, they're still in Arkhangelsk by the POD.

dreadnought jenkins said:
Finally, the Russians could never intervene.
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Oh, that is just a given.


P.S. I was absolutely sure that OP was talking about 1935 Hunger March when I saw the thread header.
 

Helltanz98

Uhm yeah I"m thinking that its like :eek: but then either the Army comes home and then beats the shit out of the rebels or the other allies come in and knock heads and restore order
Neither would be pleasant but yeah Canada going Red is unlikely, at least it staying that way
 

dreadnought jenkins

The problem with this POD is that your theorizing that Canada could have done worse to the crowd. With the exception of actually firing on the crowd, sending the RCMP in with night sticks to beat the crap out of anyone who resists is as harsh as it gets. I don't think the Canadian army has ever fired into a crowd since the 1830 rebellions.

Besides, most modern historians agree that there was no real radicalism to the movement, with the exception of a tiny group, none of whom were orators or leaders on the level of the Russian socialists or we would have heard of them.

Finally, Winnepeg is far away from the Halifax, so if the government caught a sniff of sympathy among the ranks, you'd probably see the railways restricted until the affair in Winnepeg dies down.
 
TheMann

TheMann

Mike Stearns said:
I disagree. If the Canadian government handled this in the wrong way, then they could have serious problems when the the troops come home in 1918. By the end of the war, the Canadian Corp was considered the creme de la creme of Britain's Imperial armies and was utterly feared by the Germans. If the Canadian Army comes home and decides to side with the strikers, the Canadian goverment could find itself in very deep trouble.
Click to expand...

Problem there is getting said soldier to shoot at their own people. That is not going to happen.

Canada going communist is utterly and totally impossible, for a bunch of reasons. Most Canadians are hardy, independent people - which tends to not help communist movements. That's before you get into the fact that the USA is right next door. Have it happen any time after WWII and the Americans would immediately invade. As mentioned, I can only see it going to the point of a strong New Deal.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

I had a great-uncle who was a leader in the One Big Union movement and involved with the Great Strike. While he, personally, was really big on Thorstein Veblen (theory of the leisure class), many of the other leaders were radical enough that 'commie' probably is actually fair.

While I could see a 'socialist' movement arising, it would be hard to pull the component pieces together. Canadian farmers were very co-operative, and the CCF (one of the precursors to the modern NDP) was largely based on the idea of a 'progressive', popular, co-operative sort of socialism. But a Bolshevik type socialism where the land was taken away from people? No way, no how, ain't gonna happen.

I've always been amused at how the NDP government in Saskatchewan consistently balance its books and it was the 'right-wing' governments who ran deficits...
 

catboy637

Well, if Canada became communist, then the U.S.S.R. would obviously support them. If the Cold War came the same way, then it could definetely become hot with Canada.
 
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