US Grant invades Canada

the Apple Man

Okay, now ive heard stories the US Grant, after becoming President, thought he could secure his re-election by invading Canada. I'm not sure if thats true or not, but it also says that he tried to convince the British to let go of Canada, so that it would be independant from the empire, and therfore would recieve no help from it.

so, what would a US invasion of Canada in the 1870's have looked like?
 

Commander_Williams_4

Well, firstly, if Grant took over Canada, the US would have been in some trouble.

After a war which killed hundreds of thousands of troops, why start another huge war with a country bigger then itself?

With a ragged army and no willpower, Canada may have even fought the US back.

Also, even if by some stroke of luck the US took over the entirety of Canada, you would have something sort of a double reconstruction era going on.

It took way too much effort to bring the South back, so with Canada to manage at once, everything would a confusing mass.

I think...
 
Fenrir_Angerboda

Fenrir_Angerboda

ever read Robert Conroy's "1862"? that has Grant leading an invasion of canada in the Civil war.
the POD is the Trent incident, and the British enter on the CSA's side.
Grant does invade canada, after all, canada had barely anything to call an army, even with the british Support.

but in 1870?
Not likely.
that would mean Reconstruction would either slow down, be delayed, or (not likely) not happen at all.
and i hardly see why anyone would want another war after the Civil war.
 

CaptainAmerica

i doubt Grant would ever invade Canada but if he did he would have a year of a Lee Grant combo are as long as Lee lives for in that War and Longstreet and Sherman is available to replace Lee. Also this war would most likely end reconstruction but it would temporarly unite the US against the UK. It might even lead to an alliance between USA and Prussia soon to be modern Germany. It would make an interesting TL to say the least
 

ZaphodBeeblebrox

Fenrir_Angerboda said:
ever read Robert Conroy's "1862"? that has Grant leading an invasion of canada in the Civil war.
the POD is the Trent incident, and the British enter on the CSA's side.
Grant does invade canada, after all, canada had barely anything to call an army, even with the british Support.

but in 1870?
Not likely.
that would mean Reconstruction would either slow down, be delayed, or (not likely) not happen at all.
and i hardly see why anyone would want another war after the Civil war.
Click to expand...
If it Happened at All, it would Probably be a Lot Like The Indian Fighting of The Same Period ...

In Rare Cases like Fitzhugh Lee, Ex-Confederates were Allowed to Regain their Citizenship on The Battlefield ...

A War with Canada could See WHOLE Divisions being Recruited under The Same Terms; So Much for Reconstruction, The Full ANV could Wind up Being Repatriated this Way!
 

Mike Stearns

The realistic scenario would be that the Americans finish the transcontinental railway, run a line up to the border and strike north for Winnipeg, Calgary and Edmonton. In the 1860s, the Canadian west was very sparsely populated. By the time the British goverment can respond,, the Americans will have had lots of time to fortify their positions and will control the only major settlements west of the Canadian Shield. All the American government has to do next is promise free land to anyone who wants to take it. The result will be a flood of immigrants, a rump Canada and eventual absorbtion for British Columbia and the Yukon.
 

Timmy811

A petition by 104 American citizens in British Columbia was sent to Grant asking for annexation in 1869, I suppose that could be used as fig leaf CB.
 

General Mung Beans

Banned
The US would probably conquer Canada but at a bloody cost. The Royal Navy would completely blockade the US and cause economic collapse. We'll probably see the US allied with Germany in the end.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Consider:

In 1870 the US has no real army to speak of. It can scrape together about 10,000 regulars and 30-40,000 militiamen for such an invasion.

The US Navy of the time (1873 Virginus crisis) was not considered adequate to put up any resistance to the local Spanish squadron. Their dozen half rotten Monitors and score of wooden steamers simply won't cut it against the 12" RML of HMS Monarch for example.

The British OTOH have a sizable regular force in Canada. In addition to various garrisons, the British have 10 integrated regular-militia combined arms divisions. Their ready forces outweigh whatever the US can send, and the British army at home (in this period organised as 8 notional Corps de Armee, although in reality it's no more than 4) can easily reinforce Canada.

The US will simply be slaughtered.
 

Mark Ford

In 1867 the British paid the USA $13,000,000 not to invade Canada, if they invaded anyway I'm sure the British would want their money back. At the very least Grant would aquire a reputation for dishonesty that would taint US relations with Europe for some time to come.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Mark Ford said:
In 1867 the British paid the USA $13,000,000 not to invade Canada, if they invaded anyway I'm sure the British would want their money back. At the very least Grant would aquire a reputation for dishonesty that would taint US relations with Europe for some time to come.
Click to expand...

The cost of keeping 2 battalions abroad for a year.....
 

burmafrd

Banned
Its only 5 years after the army was disbanded. There are 500,000 veterans of war superior to any that the Brits have in Canada. Take a couple of months to march 50,000 them into shape and then head north and show the Brits what veterans of real wars can do.
 
von Adler

von Adler

The British built sizable fortifications in the parts of Canada that counted - the east - during the civil war. I don't see the US overcoming them before a blockade strangles it. Where will the US get salpeter for gunpowder inder a blockade?
 

67th Tigers

Banned
on Adler said:
The British built sizable fortifications in the parts of Canada that counted - the east - during the civil war. I don't see the US overcoming them before a blockade strangles it. Where will the US get salpeter for gunpowder inder a blockade?
Click to expand...

OTL the powder problem was solved by DuPont importing Guano (Sodium Nitrate) from Chile and making Potassium Nitrate. Still doesn't solve the problem of getting that through the blockade....

burmafrd said:
Its only 5 years after the army was disbanded. There are 500,000 veterans of war superior to any that the Brits have in Canada. Take a couple of months to march 50,000 them into shape and then head north and show the Brits what veterans of real wars can do.
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As good as those veterans in the IRA who the Canadian Militia repeatedly beat? :p

Seriously, they don't have any large usable reserve left over from the ACW. There may be 500,000 kicking around who saw service, but it's a considerable period of time since they saw service with the Colours, and they properly were worn out by the wars end anyway (c.f. the massive qualitative decline in the last 18 months of the war).
 
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miketr

von Adler said:
The British built sizable fortifications in the parts of Canada that counted - the east - during the civil war. I don't see the US overcoming them before a blockade strangles it. Where will the US get salpeter for gunpowder inder a blockade?
Click to expand...

Making saltpeter is rather basic bathtub chemistry. All you need is manure, urine, water and time… You are thinking of nitrates for more modern powders. Loose or lightly packed black powder? Blockade would have zero effect on production of such.

Michael
 

67th Tigers

Banned
miketr said:
Making saltpeter is rather basic bathtub chemistry. All you need is manure, urine, water and time… You are thinking of nitrates for more modern powders. Loose or lightly packed black powder? Blockade would have zero effect on production of such.

Michael
Click to expand...

Yes, no significant product.
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

miketr said:
Making saltpeter is rather basic bathtub chemistry. All you need is manure, urine, water and time… You are thinking of nitrates for more modern powders. Loose or lightly packed black powder? Blockade would have zero effect on production of such.

Michael
Click to expand...
True, but tonnes of gunpowder require tonnes of saltpeter which requires multiple tonnes of excreta. It is exceedingly difficult to fight an industrial era war with saltpeter sources from agricultural/city waste. Off hand, I don't know of any nation that has managed it. Moreover, if you remove the nitrates from agriculture, your farm yields will go down, and it will be harder to feed your people.
 

General Mung Beans

Banned
67th Tigers said:
Seriously, they don't have any large usable reserve left over from the ACW. There may be 500,000 kicking around who saw service, but it's a considerable period of time since they saw service with the Colours, and they properly were worn out by the wars end anyway (c.f. the massive qualitative decline in the last 18 months of the war).
Click to expand...

Wouldn't Grant build up an army before invading Canada?
 

yyz

What about Russia not selling Alaska and avenging UK by attacking West Canada (Columbia) together with USA which could attack Canada.

Russian Empire has a fleet - during Civil war they sent ships to San-Fransisco and NY to support USA against Confederates and UK.

Which is more - France would support attack of Canada as old british enemy and hoping that frankocanadians would live better in MegaUSA than in British dominion.
 
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