Base Maps from 550 BC to Modern Day, all in UCS!

[Alex Richards]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

That's totally different. The dependency towards USSR for diplomatic recognition, weapons or even economic market were something Arab states never had.

The People's Republic of the Congo at least had a relationship with France that was quite close in terms of strength to that with the USSR, and as you used Kampuchea as an example of Chinese influence, then it would seem a pretty good match for Ethiopia and the USSR.

I'll get on the rest though.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Alex Richards

The People's Republic of the Congo at least had a relationship with France that was quite close in terms of strength to that with the USSR, and as you used Kampuchea as an example of Chinese influence, then it would seem a pretty good match for Ethiopia and the USSR.

Yes, but not for Romania or RDA and USSR, not being puppet like was post-68 Czechoslovakia and having their own agenda.

My point wasn't about how influence fit the situation on Africa, but how influence and puppet-state didn't fit the situation in Eastern Europe.

[wolf_brother]

My only complaints are the lack of inclusion of some of conventions that we've worked out since the last update (e.g. Statlets within the same cultural sphere, probably a few others), and the random changing of the Savoyards from their traditional green to orange.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by wolf_brother

My only complaints are the lack of inclusion of some of conventions that we've worked out since the last update (e.g. Statlets within the same cultural sphere, probably a few others)

So, so long
-Feudality
-Statelets of same culture

Maybe putting the colour of rebels as well, as it was discussed which was in this thread recently?

and the random changing of the Savoyards from their traditional green to orange.

Well, usually, green is used for Italy the same way Blue is for France.

Regarding on how Savoy played a minor role up to XIX in dominating North Italy...

[wolf_brother]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

So, so long
-Feudality
-Statelets of same culture

Maybe putting the colour of rebels as well, as it was discussed which was in this thread recently?

Agreed.

Well, usually, green is used for Italy the same way Blue is for France.

Regarding on how Savoy played a minor role up to XIX in dominating North Italy...

But we already have a color for Rome/Italy.

I just don't see the justification in changing the Savoyard color. It renders, at one swoop, all of our maps obsolete for no gain.

[LSCatilina]

But we already have a color for Rome/Italy.

The issue is that it would bear a confusion between

-Carolingian Italy and Lombard principalities (Rome vs Green)
-Making northern italian states looking like they are an united Italy or pretend to be when, they're not.

Finally, it allows to represent dominant north Italian states without possible confusion.

I just don't see the justification in changing the Savoyard color. It renders, at one swoop, all of our maps obsolete for no gain.

The number of map featuring Savoy as coloured is not really important. It should be easy to recolour a continuous territory.

For the gain, as above, it allow us to avoid confusion between United Italy and Northern italy, just as we have a Southern Italy distinct colour.

[Alex Richards]

He's not saying 'don't have a North Italian colour', he's saying 'give green back to Savoy and have the Orange as North Italian', which is a fair enough comment.

Also, states of the same culture is included. Note under Generic where the colour box for the 240,240,240 is listed as 'multiple small states of the same culture with unknown/undrawable borders'.

Putting the rebels colour in as well is now on the list.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Alex Richards

He's not saying 'don't have a North Italian colour', he's saying 'give green back to Savoy and have the Orange as North Italian', which is a fair enough comment.

Okay, misundersting from me then. I think green would better fit Northern Italy as mainstream used colour (but we could say this as well for Italy), but that's not really important enough if you think people here are too much used with Savoy colour to change it.

Also, states of the same culture is included. Note under Generic where the colour box for the 240,240,240 is listed as 'multiple small states of the same culture with unknown/undrawable borders'.

I think he wanted to say statelets having the same culture with known borders internally and externally, as Gaul states before roman conquest that are coloured plain.

[EmmettMcFly55]

I don't want to cause any more headaches for all of you, but why were those "Other Saxon/Bavarian/Austrian state" made so radically different from the "normal" Saxon/Bavarian/Austrian state colours all of a sudden? To make sure they wouldn't be seen as a puppet? And that wasn't changed with Prussia/Brandenburg.

Also, I would say that Savoy/North Italian orange (which I, too, would prefer as being North Italian rather than Savoyard) is a bit close to the Dutch colour, but I suppose there's a small chance of that ever becoming a major issue.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by EmmettMcFly55

I don't want to cause any more headaches for all of you, but why were those "Other Saxon/Bavarian/Austrian state" made so radically different from the "normal" Saxon/Bavarian/Austrian state colours all of a sudden? To make sure they wouldn't be seen as a puppet?

Basically this.

And that wasn't changed with Prussia/Brandenburg.

Unsure. Probably forgotten?

[Alex Richards]

OK, having felt that the length of discussion I'd already had with LSCatilina would require further opinions on the North Italian situation, and having had that weighed in I'll switch Savoy and North Italy.

I'll also switch Brandenburg and HRE1. If people feel these colours are too garish, the influence colours for Bavaria, Prussia, Austria and Saxony are still distinct enough from the original colours that the originals can be used, but as said it could still be confusing if the influence colours aren't there.

If that's not too tortuous a sentance

[Simreeve]

Are there any base-maps or patches that show Mexico's internal borders (for states & territories) for the period in between Mexican independence from Spain and Texan independence from Mexico? How about for the period between Texan indepence and 1849, as well?
(i.e. including the boundaries within the northern lands that were subsequently lost to the USA, too...)

[stateless_englishman]

Originally Posted by Simreeve

Are there any base-maps or patches that show Mexico's internal borders (for states & territories) for the period in between Mexican independence from Spain and Texan independence from Mexico? How about for the period between Texan indepence and 1849, as well?
(i.e. including the boundaries within the northern lands that were subsequently lost to the USA, too...)

Here you go.

1849 is here.

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

Originally Posted by Alex Richards

OK, having felt that the length of discussion I'd already had with LSCatilina would require further opinions on the North Italian situation, and having had that weighed in I'll switch Savoy and North Italy.

I'll also switch Brandenburg and HRE1. If people feel these colours are too garish, the influence colours for Bavaria, Prussia, Austria and Saxony are still distinct enough from the original colours that the originals can be used, but as said it could still be confusing if the influence colours aren't there.

If that's not too tortuous a sentance

I'd rather see it on a map before I give my $0.02. However, the flag of Lombardy's color is greenhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f_Lombardy.svg), so it wouldn't be inappropriate to use it for Lombardy. The traditional color for Savoy is blue instead (the Kingdom of Sardinia being close to Napoleon). Orange is the color that Longobards are usually depicted in. So my suggestion would be to use the green color for northern Italy/Milan, the blue for Piedmont/Savoy and the orange for Longobard/Non-Sicilian South (because of the Duchies of Spoleto and Benevento). Orange being close to Sicilian red is probably a good thing too, given the close relation between Naples and Sicily. It also reflects a sort of cultural dualism of Italy as the north would be Blue/Green/pale Blue (Venice) and the south Red/Orange/Purple (Pisa/Florence) with the neutral Papal color in the middle. I'd go even further and suggest to switch the colors of Genoa and Venice, but that would be pushing it.

[Alex Richards]

Originally Posted by Lord Hastur of Carcosa

I'd rather see it on a map before I give my $0.02. However, the flag of Lombardy's color is greenhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...f_Lombardy.svg), so it wouldn't be inappropriate to use it for Lombardy. The traditional color for Savoy is blue instead (the Kingdom of Sardinia being close to Napoleon). Orange is the color that Longobards are usually depicted in. So my suggestion would be to use the green color for northern Italy/Milan, the blue for Piedmont/Savoy and the orange for Longobard/Non-Sicilian South (because of the Duchies of Spoleto and Benevento). Orange being close to Sicilian red is probably a good thing too, given the close relation between Naples and Sicily. It also reflects a sort of cultural dualism of Italy as the north would be Blue/Green/pale Blue (Venice) and the south Red/Orange/Purple (Pisa/Florence) with the neutral Papal color in the middle. I'd go even further and suggest to switch the colors of Genoa and Venice, but that would be pushing it.

Isn't that the opposite of what we want? Neighbouring colours distinct from eachother rather than similar to eachother?

Plus, that would really render the maps obsolete.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Alex Richards

Isn't that the opposite of what we want? Neighbouring colours distinct from eachother rather than similar to eachother?

Well, indeed some colouring are hugely anecdotic (southern lombard principalities) and making a distinction between Lombards and Milan isn't needed.

That said, he have a point about colouring Savoy in blue (pale blue-turquoise?) and Northern Italy in green, and I'm not saying that because I proposed it in PM

[Lord Hastur of Carcosa]

Are you suggesting to switch Savoy with Venice?

[wolf_brother]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

I think he wanted to say statelets having the same culture with known borders internally and externally, as Gaul states before roman conquest that are coloured plain.

Yes, exactly. We need to have the conventions we use actually listed on the key.

Originally Posted by Alex Richards

Isn't that the opposite of what we want? Neighbouring colours distinct from eachother rather than similar to eachother?

Plus, that would really render the maps obsolete.

Completely agree. I rather like the compromise we've already met, that is green (111/189/72) for Savoy/Piedmont, orange (239/115/15) for Milan/Lombardy.

Also, two more cans of worms to open;

- I notice that the new key has the previously German Colonial Successor State color (185/185/185) also listed as being used for Holy Roman Empire statelets, vassals, and client states. Doesn't that render the HRE Addendum somewhat moot, freeing up eight colors that could be more properly used on other, more worthy (perhaps non-Eurocentric) states?

- What was the intended target for the new "Copic Christian State (not Egypt)"? I can't imagine any such state would exist on an IOTL map, and even on ATL maps the Egyptian, or even the Generic, coloring would have been appropriate enough. If we're simply looking to add more colors to Africa there are other states that would better benefit from the addition of coloring; Nubia/Sennar/Sudan springs to mind. EDIT: Also the Mossi.

[LSCatilina]

- I notice that the new key has the previously German Colonial Successor State color (185/185/185) also listed as being used for Holy Roman Empire statelets, vassals, and client states. Doesn't that render the HRE Addendum somewhat moot, freeing up eight colors that could be more properly used on other, more worthy (perhaps non-Eurocentric) states?

What I would propose is to put the remaing HRE colours in a "Reserve Colour" part, for anyone needing for a colour that is not listed for his map.
It wouldn't for a regular use, and certainly not for the same precise country/culture, but can be helping for ATL map that, if not radically different from OTL, have some countries making better to the point of needing colours.

- What was the intended target for the new "Copic Christian State (not Egypt)"? I can't imagine any such state would exist on an IOTL map, and even on ATL maps the Egyptian, or even the Generic, coloring would have been appropriate enough. If we're simply looking to add more colors to Africa there are other states that would better benefit from the addition of coloring; Nubia/Sennar/Sudan springs to mind.

When it was proposed, it was for Nubia and Copts (while I don't remember why Egyptian copts were precised) mainly for antic and medieval Nubia who was composed by christian statelets or kingdoms.

That said, it was in the key before the current propositions.

Not really random, considering Nubia/Sudan in history.
-Power southern of Egypt, with many interaction, including total annexation from one and other.
-Christian Nubian states.

We could eventually add Sennar and Sudan, while I think the colour would probably fit more today's South Sudan.

[wolf_brother]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

What I would propose is to put the remaing HRE colours in a "Reserve Colour" part, for anyone needing for a colour that is not listed for his map.
It wouldn't for a regular use, and certainly not for the same precise country/culture, but can be helping for ATL map that, if not radically different from OTL, have some countries making better to the point of needing colours.

When it was proposed, it was for Nubia and Copts (while I don't remember why Egyptian copts were precised) mainly for antic and medieval Nubia who was composed by christian statelets or kingdoms.

That said, it was in the key before the current propositions.

Not really random, considering Nubia/Sudan in history.
-Power southern of Egypt, with many interaction, including total annexation from one and other.
-Christian Nubian states.

We could eventually add Sennar and Sudan, while I think the colour would probably fit more today's South Sudan.

I support both these positions.