TL-191: After the End

[Saladan]

Originally Posted by Arkhangelsk

Interesting info Saladan, I'd imagine that Austria Hungary might adopt a governmental system akin to Germany's, considering the ties both nations have (you have the Emperor holding more of a symbolic position, a Chancellor/Prime Minister and a Legislature which has more power...).

I agree with you that most people in the Empire would view themselves as Croatian or Galacian or Czech as opposed to members of a united empire...is there any conseivable event post Great War that could change the perception of the majority of the Empires population to view themselves as Austro-Hungarian or some equivalent?

Hm...I don't know, maybe it's just me, but after the superbombing of Paris, Vienna strikes me as its successor in terms of art and culture...or is it just me...?

As for the great war event I doubt it. The penguin atlas I own put it very nicely. before the great war all of the Great powers had the following in common, common language, religion, and ethnic composition. Germany was mostly German, mostly spoke German, and most Germans were of the same religion. Same with France, and Great Britain. But Austria? Ethnic mishmash, more languages then you can count, and practically every religion in Europe. What kind of nation does that make? Even the US (which is about as diverse in all these ways as you can get) at least had some things to create a unifying factor. Austria on the other hand does not. there is really no political, religious, ethnic, or any kind of factor that can create a united Empire.

[Franz Josef II]

We can thank the British press since WWI for the whole "jail of nations" concept that the Austrian Empire has been characterized as being. This is far from the truth - until the Imperial armies were gutted in 1917/1918 the various nationalities were willing to work with the Empire. No one wanted to leave, they wanted federation. Even the Czechs for the most part until late in the war. Furthermore, the various peoples were bound together by the Monarchy; most of the people were Catholic, and the Vienna administration was lenient and fair. Contrast that with the German or Russian attitude when dealing with minorities. German was the language of government and the Army, and is an easy language to learn. The Austrian Empire was truly the first and, sad to say, perhaps the only supra -national government, and the miseries of the Balkans are a direct result of the end of the Habsburg Empire.

[New Yorker]

And, if the Dual Monarchy could have evolved into a multi-ethnic federation, i.e. the EU ahead of its time, how much better the 20th might have been? Of course, no one really knows but it seems to me it may have prevented WW2.

[Arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Franz Josef II

We can thank the British press since WWI for the whole "jail of nations" concept that the Austrian Empire has been characterized as being. This is far from the truth - until the Imperial armies were gutted in 1917/1918 the various nationalities were willing to work with the Empire. No one wanted to leave, they wanted federation. Even the Czechs for the most part until late in the war. Furthermore, the various peoples were bound together by the Monarchy; most of the people were Catholic, and the Vienna administration was lenient and fair. Contrast that with the German or Russian attitude when dealing with minorities. German was the language of government and the Army, and is an easy language to learn. The Austrian Empire was truly the first and, sad to say, perhaps the only supra -national government, and the miseries of the Balkans are a direct result of the end of the Habsburg Empire.

oh...that's good to hear ( I guess you can say I'm a proponent for a successful Austria Hungary at heart).

Now I'm not very knowledgeable on on Austro-Hunagarian history in general, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I believe both Franz Ferdinand and Karl I were in favor of reform, and if Austria Hungary is given some breathing space after the war I can see the Empire on the road to further federation. I think the Serbians would be the only big threat, unlike most of the nationalities of the Empire, Serbia enjoyed the luxury of a sovereign nation...perhaps akin to the USA's experience with Canada TTL...

[Franz Josef II]

Originally Posted by Arkhangelsk

oh...that's good to hear ( I guess you can say I'm a proponent for a successful Austria Hungary at heart).

Now I'm not very knowledgeable on on Austro-Hunagarian history in general, so please correct me if I'm wrong. I believe both Franz Ferdinand and Karl I were in favor of reform, and if Austria Hungary is given some breathing space after the war I can see the Empire on the road to further federation. I think the Serbians would be the only big threat, unlike most of the nationalities of the Empire, Serbia enjoyed the luxury of a sovereign nation...perhaps akin to the USA's experience with Canada TTL...

Yes.Both recognized the need for the Empire to share power with the non - German, non - Magyar people of their dominion. In OTL this was doomed by 1918 b/c the Austrian armies were seething with discontent, there was widespread chaos and banditry going on outside the cities in the countryside thanks to the British blockade against Germany and Austria. Very wisely the Imperial Parliament had been suspended at the outset of hostilities: in 1918 in the only session saw the Emperor Karl's chancellor make an impassioned appeal: "let us all be Austrians!" which was shouted down, and the concept of United States of Greater Austria was rejected completely.

Now: an Austrian Empire which has been victorious or at the very least weathered the (arguably) worst four years of its existance has a pretty good chance of surviving. It would still be a hard thing to accomplish, but once begun would immediately gain the support and good wishes of Karl's subjects. This was the hallmark of the House of Habsburg, and what made them truly the greatest Royal House of Europe: honour, leniency, and goodness to their subjects.

[Mister Abbadon]

Guys I hate to say it but I think the thread is dead

[manofsteelwool]

Originally Posted by Mister Abbadon

Guys I hate to say it but I think the thread is dead

Didn't you hear DBE is in college?

As is known by many people, college does take up a great deal of one's time. There will be updates, but will come less frequently.

Don't jump to conclusions so quickly.

[GreatScottMarty]

Originally Posted by manofsteelwool

Didn't you hear DBE is in college?

As is known by many people, college does take up a great deal of one's time. There will be updates, but will come less frequently.

Don't jump to conclusions so quickly.

yea especially if your a history major all you do is read, I should know. But to get the ball rolling a little bit. Anyone have any theories on what happened to Brig. Gen. Clarence Potter? He doesn't strick me as a Konrad Adenauer type? and DBE said that the CSA is on the road to rejoining the USA and it has been rather bloodless. I wonder if Potter's book was more negativitiy towards Featherston and Freedom Party ideals(he was no fan) played a large part. Any thoughts?

[lothaw]

Originally Posted by GreatScottMarty

yea especially if your a history major all you do is read, I should know. But to get the ball rolling a little bit. Anyone have any theories on what happened to Brig. Gen. Clarence Potter? He doesn't strick me as a Konrad Adenauer type? and DBE said that the CSA is on the road to rejoining the USA and it has been rather bloodless. I wonder if Potter's book was more negativitiy towards Featherston and Freedom Party ideals(he was no fan) played a large part. Any thoughts?

Potter seemed to advocate Confederate independence at the end, though was really powerless to do anything about it. His book struck me more as a means of income than political change.

[marcus_aurelius]

Haven't read much of the original TL-191, but still, I could somehow see Potter becoming a professor somewhere (Yale, perhaps? Or some other ex-Confederate university?)

Marc A

[New Yorker]

I always hoped that Potter would be the Canaris of TL 191. I was surprised he followed the path he did.

[GreatScottMarty]

Originally Posted by New Yorker

I always hoped that Potter would be the Canaris of TL 191. I was surprised he followed the path he did.

Canaris? I am not familar with the name

[New Yorker]

Originally Posted by GreatScottMarty

Canaris? I am not familar with the name

Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of Germany's counterintelligence, abwehr, who worked to subvert the Nazi regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

[GreatScottMarty]

me too. I am hoping, as DBE develops this, that plays a role, I always liked the character and found his character's honesty refreshing. I am hoping to see the guy as a leader in the post war south but who knows.

[Vexacus]

why doesnlt someone contact DBE and ask him if they can carry on while he'saway

[CT23]

How do you think Daniel/Douglas MacArthur will be remembered ITTL? He did win Alaska basically in this thread, but during the Second Great War he seemed to perform poorly and few officers seemed to have a good opinion of him.

[GreatScottMarty]

As an arrogant jerk, he didn't have a faithful subordinate like Custer did to sort of cover his ass. There is a reason he went to Canada, because he kept on screwing up the Potomac front. I think sort of like our MacArthur as an arrogant self serving jackass

[Nevermore]

I think I'll put my money on MacArthur being seen as 'just another war hero' and not much else. As was said, he was an arrogant prick nearly on the same level as Custer was. His military skill is lacking, and it's arguable the only reason he even won in Alaska was the incompetence of his Russian opponents; remember the Russian Civil War? Yeah...not the best show of Russian military intelligence there from the higher-ups (though, of course, the uprisings did have popular support...).

Not really facing much competition, and the fact that the U.S. essentially provoked Russia first, well, I think he might become a household name, but not really remembered with any fondness other than 'the guy who got us Russian Alaska.'

[area11]

Depending on how the Russians that were living Alaska like being in the USA he could be remembered by them as a savior from the Tsar or as a person that took them away from their native homeland

[Arkhangelsk]

I started thinking about the looming Pacific War again, and it got me wondering about the fate of Japan's colonies. I recall DBE hinting that the war won't be a long dragged out conflict...which gives me the impression that GEACPS will be completely gutted. I see Indonesia jumping onto the IM bandwagon for sure...The Philippines I'm not as sure...but I suppose they'd follow suit...as for Korea, I've seen the idea thrown around that they may still be apart of Japan, which I highly doubt, considering the animosity between the Koreans and Japanese would only heat up after 50 years of occupation (and the fact that the future Chinese State would probably not tolerate a land border with their mortal enemy.

On the subject of China, I see any government besides a republic out of the question, and by what DBE has hinted at China and the US will be bestest buds for a long time, so a republic would be a good estimate.