ASCOT: An Anglo-Dutch Union

My new TL. Hopefully, this post will set the scene for what's happening. If you're not sure about the premise, having failed to spot the words after "Ascot", see below.

ASCOT: AN ANGLO-DUTCH UNION

I: Roses and Tulips

"Worry not about love eternal, my dear girl. Simply lie back and think of Britain."
–Attributed to George IV, 1815.
QUEEN CHARLOTTE I: The Life and Times

Right of Margaret Thornaby & Durham University
Published in 1951, Durham

…With Prince George's marriage failing so soon into its life, he and Caroline had produced only one heir to the throne: young Princess Charlotte. This was a marked change from the previous four generations of the Hanoverian dynasty, which had provided the British peerage with a veritable cornucopia of dukes and duchesses; so many had been produced, in fact, that it is perhaps a blessing on England's farmers that George and Caroline had never been close, lest the isle be overwhelmed by royalty.

This led to a problem. Had Charlotte been born male, this hypothetical "Charles" would proceed in much the same dynastic manner as his forebears, being King of both Britain and Hanover. However, women were entirely forbidden to accede to the Hanoverian throne, as dictated in the Salic Laws of old. Were she to become Queen of Britain, the Hanoverian throne would go instead to her uncle Frederick, Duke of York. While this would, in principle, preserve the good relations between Britain and Hanover, the two nations would surely drift apart over time, and Britain would find herself without a sure ally on the Continent, and naught but her Navy to protect her from a future Napoleon. The British people had seen themselves helpless too long to accept this, and thus in the fading moments of 1813, the Prince Regent embarked on a quest to find his daughter a suitable husband and future King.

Fate lent a helping hand, and the Prince's Quest would end on the first candidate: Prince William of Orange, heir to the throne of the United Netherlands (formed from the old United Provinces and the Austrian Netherlands). Upon her meeting William, Charlotte was soon overwhelmed by his charms, and later revealed that she "consider[ed] [her]self to be engaged". She later cooled towards William somewhat, but he was able to win her affections once more during a chance meeting at Ascot [1]. The marriage contract was agreed to by both nations: Prince William would be crowned King Consort [2] upon Charlotte's coronation, and she Queen Consort of the United Netherlands on his. The marriage took place on the 24th of July, 1814, and Prince William was granted the title "Prince of Wales", while Charlotte became Princess of Orange.

The marriage quickly resulted in a young Prince, born nine months into the marriage, on the 13th of April. The Prince was initially named William Augustus George, but this was quickly changed when the name was realised to spell "WAG", and the child was baptised George William Augustus. (The incident was not forgotten by satirists, however, and would haunt him throughout his life.) The baptism provided fresh opportunities for disaster, with the young Prince nearly drowning in the font, and it was later held that this was an omen of things to come…

THE OUTSIDE WORLD

1815: Napoleon is defeated. Then he comes back. Then he is trounced thoroughly on the fields of Waterloo by Wellington and Blucher. He doesn't come back after this.

The Congress of Vienna redraws the map of Europe. Again. The United Netherlands gain borders extending to the Mosel in the south, and the Rhine in the east. Prussia is compensated with a full annexation of Saxony, whose King now gains the formerly potential Prussian Rhineland east of the Rhine, which becomes the Kingdom of Westphalia. The remainder of the Rhineland is annexed to the Palatinate (Bavarian). This series of swaps is seen as logical.

In North America, the War of 1812 is ended in status quo ante bellum.


[1] Whereas IOTL, he got drunk and acted like a twerp, and she consequently loathed him afterwards. POD!

[2] I say King Consort as opposed to Prince Consort here. Prince George still had enough clout that he could bully this past Parliament, as opposed to the "sit there and look pretty" attitude that Parliament had towards Victoria when she married Albert.
 
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Amazing how many Anglo-Dutch unions can be thought of. This variant I haven't seen before. I am interested. Still it is probably more than a personal union, than a true union.

Hmm, I was wondering. If the Netherlands enters the British sphere of influence. Might that lead to support of England to a larger Netherlands at congress of Vienna? There are various options, I noticed, like Dutch East-Frisia, Dutch Nassau or Dutch Rhineland. The return of more colonies to the Dutch is also an interesting option, although I can't see the British gladly part with Ceylon or the Cape. English support for the Dutch during the Belgian revolt is almost certain (assuming the revolt isn't butterflied away).
 
Amazing how many Anglo-Dutch unions can be thought of. This variant I haven't seen before. I am interested. Still it is probably more than a personal union, than a true union.

I was surprised to find personal unions in the 19th Century myself - I thought they'd been rather outdated by then.

Hmm, I was wondering. If the Netherlands enters the British sphere of influence. Might that lead to support of England to a larger Netherlands at congress of Vienna? There are various options, I noticed, like Dutch East-Frisia, Dutch Nassau or Dutch Rhineland. The return of more colonies to the Dutch is also an interesting option, although I can't see the British gladly part with Ceylon or the Cape. English support for the Dutch during the Belgian revolt is almost certain (assuming the revolt isn't butterflied away).

I wasn't sure what would happen with Vienna, so I decided to not butterfly too much. (I actually thought that the Congress would go the other way, if anything - the other powers get worried by the closer Anglo-Dutch relations and try to push the Netherlands down, with an independent Duchy of Limburg. But I decided against that.)

I can safely say that Belgium will not gain independence, de facto or de jure, in 1830.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think that a larger Netherland is quite likely with a border at the Rhine and the Mosel River. The reason for this is that UK need a strong Netherland to avoid needing to send troops in case of a French invasion, I think this would be accepted at Vienna, but Prussia need to be compensated so they get Saxony, while Frederick Augustus I of Saxony is made king of Westphalen*. Bavariarian Palatinate also get a border at the Mosel. Of course the result is that I likely have butterflyed German unification away**.

*he receive the former Prussia territories east of the Rhine and west of Hanover

**At least in any way we would recognise.
 
I think that a larger Netherland is quite likely with a border at the Rhine and the Mosel River. The reason for this is that UK need a strong Netherland to avoid needing to send troops in case of a French invasion, I think this would be accepted at Vienna, but Prussia need to be compensated so they get Saxony, while Frederick Augustus I of Saxony is made king of Westphalen*. Bavariarian Palatinate also get a border at the Mosel. Of course the result is that I likely have butterflyed German unification away**.

*he receive the former Prussia territories east of the Rhine and west of Hanover

**At least in any way we would recognise.

Now that is just awesome-sounding, but why does Bavaria randomly get extra territory? Or is that just the remainder of the Prussian Rhineland?
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Now that is just awesome-sounding, but why does Bavaria randomly get extra territory? Or is that just the remainder of the Prussian Rhineland?

Just the remainder of the Prussian Rhineland, we need to give it to someone, and they need to be strong enoung to be a credible defender against the French, and Bavaria is the fourth* strongest German state and already have territories close by.

*including Netherlands
 
Just the remainder of the Prussian Rhineland, we need to give it to someone, and they need to be strong enoung to be a credible defender against the French, and Bavaria is the fourth* strongest German state and already have territories close by.

*including Netherlands

Sounds fairly reasonable. I'll launch the good ship retcon immediately.
 
Hm... if the Netherlands is stronger like that, wouldn't that mean that there would be a (somewhat) greater push to place them in the German Confederation (as a non-colonies included whole, instead of just bits and pieces on the edges)?
 
Hm... if the Netherlands is stronger like that, wouldn't that mean that there would be a (somewhat) greater push to place them in the German Confederation (as a non-colonies included whole, instead of just bits and pieces on the edges)?

I don't follow your logic there, LI. Surely Austria would want to keep out stronger powers, to better rule what is essentially its own personal hegemony? :confused:
 
I don't follow your logic there, LI. Surely Austria would want to keep out stronger powers, to better rule what is essentially its own personal hegemony? :confused:
True, that.
On the other hand, the other German Princes might think that having another stronger power in the Confederation could help them in keeping their power, but probably not.
Hm. So the Confederation's border would probably be the same as OTL *but* that border will now go deeper in the Netherlands. Which might make them more involved in German unification/the lack of German unification then in OTL...
But that's not for ret-cons, so no need to worry about that right now, right?
 
True, that.
On the other hand, the other German Princes might think that having another stronger power in the Confederation could help them in keeping their power, but probably not.
Hm. So the Confederation's border would probably be the same as OTL *but* that border will now go deeper in the Netherlands. Which might make them more involved in German unification/the lack of German unification then in OTL...
But that's not for ret-cons, so no need to worry about that right now, right?

Yes, that all sounds about right. And the other German Princes wouldn't necessarily see it as "another strong power, we get more power", but perhaps more as "Oh, god, another shark in the water".

I'm still trying to figure out how Germany might unite ITTL. What I want to avoid is a copy-paste DoD HRE. I guess the presence of Westphalia would sort that out, anyway, as well as the absence of a Prussian presence on the Rhine (so they have less geographical reason to stretch across Germany to the other half of their territory).
 
True, that.
On the other hand, the other German Princes might think that having another stronger power in the Confederation could help them in keeping their power, but probably not.
Hm. So the Confederation's border would probably be the same as OTL *but* that border will now go deeper in the Netherlands. Which might make them more involved in German unification/the lack of German unification then in OTL...
But that's not for ret-cons, so no need to worry about that right now, right?

I see a couple of options for the Netherlands (including a Dutch rhineland) in the German confederation:
-All of the Netherlands in it
-The old Dutch republic outside it, the rest (including Belgium, Luxembourg, the Rhineland and much of Dutch Limburg) in it
-The original Netherlands, including the old Republic and the Austrian Netherlands (and Luxembourg) outside the confederation, the rest (rhineland) inside it. This scenario has a lot of variations, for example would the Prussian Netherlands be inside or outside the confederation, what would be the status of the old bishopric of Liege, etc.
-All of the Netherlands outside it
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Yes, that all sounds about right. And the other German Princes wouldn't necessarily see it as "another strong power, we get more power", but perhaps more as "Oh, god, another shark in the water".

I'm still trying to figure out how Germany might unite ITTL. What I want to avoid is a copy-paste DoD HRE. I guess the presence of Westphalia would sort that out, anyway, as well as the absence of a Prussian presence on the Rhine (so they have less geographical reason to stretch across Germany to the other half of their territory).

I think small scale regional unification is more likely, so we end up with

Leading member is bolded*

South German Confederation: Bavaria, Wütternberg and Baden (potential Switzerland and Hesse)

Hesse: all the Hessian States

Prussia: Prussia, Thuringian states and anhalt

Saxony or Saxon Confederation: Hanover**, Oldenburg, Lübeck, Bremen, Lippe and Brunswick (Potential Mecklenburg, Holstein, Schleswig, Hamburg and Westphalia),
Joker: a Saxon-Danish Confederation: Denmark join the Saxon Confederation***.

State which will likely stay as they are:

Austria, Netherland and maybe Mecklenburg.

*lack of bolding means no leading member.

**only dominating if Westphalia or Denmark doesn't join.

***it make sense from a economic and military perspective, if not from a nationalist perspective.
 
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I think small scale regional unification is more likely, so we end up with

Leading member is bolded*

South German Confederation: Bavaria, Wütternberg and Baden (potential Switzerland and Hesse)

Hesse: all the Hessian States

Prussia: Prussia, Thuringian states and anhalt

Saxony or Saxon Confederation: Hanover**, Oldenburg, Lübeck, Bremen, Lippe and Brunswick (Potential Mecklenburg, Holstein, Schleswig, Hamburg and Westphalia),
Joker: a Saxon-Danish Confederation: Denmark join the Saxon Confederation***.

State which will likely stay as they are:

Austria, Netherland and maybe Mecklenburg.

*lack of bolding means no leading member.

**only dominating if Westphalia or Denmark doesn't join.

***it make sense from economic and military perspective, if not from a nationalist perspective.

A Saxon Confederation without Saxony? Interesting...

The thing is, I think by this time nationalism is too powerful for Germany to stay so disunited. One state would probably gobble a load up, and then you have a few remaining small states and a large rival (see OTL). It would be nice to halt the rise of Prussia to Germany, though.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
A Saxon Confederation without Saxony? Interesting....

The original Saxony lay in Hanover, East Westphalia, East Holstein and Oldenburg, without any other state using the name I think they would readopt it.

The thing is, I think by this time nationalism is too powerful for Germany to stay so disunited. One state would probably gobble a load up, and then you have a few remaining small states and a large rival (see OTL). It would be nice to halt the rise of Prussia to Germany, though.

I don't think a German unification (even a klein one) would happen, because neither Prussia nor Netherland would have a interest in it, the only state which would have a interest in it is Bavaria because of their ownership of the Palatinate exclave, and they just need Baden-Wurttemberg and maybe Hesse. So the only way we're going to see a German Reunification is through a populare revolution in either Netherlands or Prussia. I personal find that unlikely, Netherland will likely create a Dutch identity for it German subjects as it did in OTL, Prussia tended to rather good at creating a Prussian identity in its German speaking subjects, so good at it that they turned Germany identitywise into Greater Prussia.
 

Faeelin

Banned
I don't think a German unification (even a klein one) would happen, because neither Prussia nor Netherland would have a interest in it, the only state which would have a interest in it is Bavaria because of their ownership of the Palatinate exclave, and they just need Baden-Wurttemberg and maybe Hesse. So the only way we're going to see a German Reunification is through a populare revolution in either Netherlands or Prussia. I personal find that unlikely, Netherland will likely create a Dutch identity for it German subjects as it did in OTL, Prussia tended to rather good at creating a Prussian identity in its German speaking subjects, so good at it that they turned Germany identitywise into Greater Prussia.

I dunno. I could see the British pushing for a Zollverain, or somesuch; and then, watch it spiral!

The King's Dutch subjects in the ATL are outnumbered by their non-dutch counterparts. Moreover, he will likely be an absentee ruler; London is way better than Amsterdam, after all.
 
Faeelin said:
The King's Dutch subjects in the ATL are outnumbered by their non-dutch counterparts.
Depends on how you count the Flemish I think.

Given how William I's 'maths' saw him declaring the United Kingdom of the Netherlands was accepted although the majority voted against it, he'll probably do something similar.
Moreover, he will likely be an absentee ruler; London is way better than Amsterdam, after all.
The Dutch king (or his regent) in this scenario probably lives in The Hague and Brussels on a 50/50 basis.

The only king of Holland to ever live in Amsterdam was Louis Napoleon.
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
I'd like to hear this taken further. I nearly started a new thread until I found this.

Part of the reason Princess Charlotte of Wales called off the engagement in OTL was because she didn't want to live in the Netherlands. Prince William of Orange spent most of his time in Belgium. I think it likely that the marriage contract would have a stipulation that the married couple would spend half their time in Britain.

The new borders aren't all that clear to me. Could anyone manage a map?
 
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Erm, goodness, this is a blast from the past. [/clichéstorm]

I have... no idea what to do with this. If anyone wants to pick this up and do something with it, feel free to.
 
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