Emberverse: The Golden Princess

SPOILERS AHEAD! BE YE WARNED!






So, being a fan of the series from the beginning, I automatically Kindle-d the book within minutes of Amazon releasing it.

Overall: B+ (that might go up to A-, depending on the next book, as this is not by any means a standalone novel).

Highlights:

It's early days, yet....but Orlaith is much much more fun to read about (especially as a POV character) than Rudi ever was.
She's an actual person, with real problems and limitations, and the rest of the characters just like her...as opposed to the
supernatural charisma that Rudi used to mind-control half the cast. Scenes don't revolve around her automatically, and other
characters don't stop their narration to mention how awesome she is.

The MacKenzies are fairly limited in how much they infect the story. They aren't simply shuffled off to the sidelines like
the Bearkillers were, but there's a minimal amount of "...and now back to Dun Wherever!" in this book.

It's 20+ years after the Quest, and nearly 47 years after the Change, so things have been settled down for quite a while.
That means bigger populations, more populated places (including several places that had previously been thought utterly
depopulated turning out to have major civilizations), and more for Stirling to work with (bigger battles, etc).

From the context, this is going to be a much shorter arc of novels than the last story (which took 7 books). Possibly as few
as three (quest setup, quest, resolution).

We're going to see LA!

The Japanese are well-written. The obligatory "So velly solly!" scenes are mercifully brief, occasionally funny, and don't
have the comedy-for-comedy's-sake feeling. The language barrier (the Japanese knowledge of English is very limited, and from
3rd/4th hand sources....and nobody from Montival except Orlaith speaks Japanese) is a pain, but everyone is able to work
around it.

Stirling has answered a question/critique I had raised several books ago (seeing that Rudi is the only dude on the Planet with
a magic item). There is more than one Magic McGuffin/Sword! The Grasscutter (one of the 3 Imperial Regalia of Japan) is in
North America, and seems to be the same as (or somethign similar to) the Sword of The Lady.
Which poses some questions of its own. Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi is a historical item, not a post-Change development. Did the Powers insert the Grasscutter into
History in advance of the Change? Did they just empower an already-extant item (as opposed to the Sword of The Lady, which is
definitely post-Change)? Or did they create a seperate item that replaces the historical sword (which the priests at the
shrine where it is kept won't even show the reigning Emperor...so the sword may not exist IRL)?



The Negatives (a lot of this pertains to the series in general, and not specifically this book):



With so much going on with Orlaith and Heuradys, there's not really a lot of screen time for the secondary characters to
really establish themselves. Hopefully the next book (which doesn't have to lay the groundwork this one did) will give them
more time to shine. The secondary characters really made the last story arc palatable, in spite of Rudi, and have been a
major strength in this series since DtF (the first book).

No internal tension. The main cast all get along (either because they are BFFs or because they are sufficiently down the
social totem pole that they don't really have any other choice), no matter what is being discussed, and there are no serious
arguments or disagreements. Opinions may be voiced in contrary to the Plan....but once the Voice Character has spoken,
everyone suddenly submits to the Plan.
Rudi's story suffered much from the fact that there was no "anti-Rudi" on the side of the Good Guys, to balance him out.
There was nobody who was able to scupper a plan, or seriously interfere with what Rudi was doing, despite being on the same
side. Nobody whose cooperation was neccessary was unwilling to cooperate, and able to make it stick. Nobody who could show up
and suddenly impose his plan/policy on the main characters (to their dismay).
This trend looks to continue on into the 3rd Generation. Everybody is on the same wavelength, or can be made to submit.
there are no arguments that can't be resolved by the end of the scene, and all plans more or less go smoothly. Nobody falls
out with someone else.
The main characters make the Trek TNG Bridge Crew look like bomb-throwing anarchists. That's not good. Nobody wants to read
about people arguing endlessly....but the opposite, where there are no serious tensions, really does a disservice to the
story.

Everything works out. Literally. If there's a problem that would discomfit the Main Characters, but is logically beyond
their control, Fate resolves it for them. The PPA won't accept a Pagan Lord Protector (and the MacKenzies won't accept a
Catholic High King)....well, don't worry, because the kid who doesn't get the Sword conveniently chooses to become Catholic,
and the kid who will get the Sword conveniently chooses to be Pagan.
TBH, I'd really like to see Montival having to deal with a serious internal stressor like the PPA refusing to recognize John because he was Pagan, or the MacKenzies up in arms because
Orlaith chose to be Catholic.

Too much of the society and how it works is still left unexplained. Given Stirling's World-Building skills are one of his
main strengths...this is kind of curious.
There have been questions begged since the end of the first trilogy that have never been addressed by any character. Why was
Eilir never in the running for Tanist (especially in the first Trilogy, before anyone knew anything about Rudi)? Why were the
Twins never in the running for Bear Lord (despite being years older than Mike, Jr)? What happens if the oldest child of the
High King/Queen isn't the person chosen by the Sword? How the hell did the Wiccans in the core MacKenzie group produce a
society that buries rapists alive?

I am sort of disappointed that the Japanese turned out to be (nearly) straight Edo-period retreads. Japan has been heavily impacted by
the post-Meiji period, to the point that post-Change Japan (formed by the survivors) would (IMHO) be limited in its visible
resemblence to the Sengoku Jidai or Edo-period culture. Even a conscious attempt to closely imitate the past would be
obviously not the same. Not enough of the traditional culture has made it through the 20th Century, especially outside the
cities. You'd end up with a kitbash that would resemble Montival (but with less impact from the period Nazis in the SCA,a nd
more influence from half-remembered Kurosawa epics).
Even the Martial Arts would be different, given that the Koryu are heavily urban-centered and practiced by a comparitively
miniscule percentage of the population. Any swordsmanship school in CY 40's Japan would likely be descended from the skills
of a devoted Kendo player (adapting his sport back to a combat system), rather than TSKSR or Itto-Ryu.

Repetition. The same exact dialogue and/or exposition happens again and again and again, being repeated by multiple
characters in different locations. Literally, the same "males are walking penises that are foolish, and less mature than
equivalent-age females" conversation/observation is dropped into the narrative at least 4 times in this book. Given that
Stirling has an unfortunate habit of veering into Grrl Power territory to begin with...this is pushing the narrative a bit
far, to the point that some of the scenes begin to sound like Womyns Studies debates. Especially after you've already heard
this exact paragraph once in the book, already. Catchphrases and speaking habits also recurr across multiple characters.

Stirling is very female-friendly, and that's good, because a lot of writers in the Fantasy Genre are really not. That said,
the number of "male transgresses against female and is punished for transgressing against females (rather than just
misbehaviour)!" scenes begin to add up, and it starts to be story-haltingly Anvilicious. It's not very empowering to have
your female warriors need to hide behind social rules to win the day or to play at the level they do (the otherwise-awesome
Tiphaine suffers from this at the end of the previous arc). Nor is a scene where the female characters sit around and objectify their male friends/relatives any more fun to read than one in which the male characters reduce their female
counterparts to Objects.


A few eye-rolling blips, like people doing handstands on railings next to a hundred-foot drop...you know, because why not? In the otherwise painstaking realism (which is not the same thing as realistic) of the Emberverse (where people do get hurt), stuff like that stands out. Stirling tends to overstate what physically optimal people are capable of, and what they would actually do. Tiphaine has a few Batman moments in the previous two arcs, as does Astrid (cutting dragonflies precisely in
half, on the wing, from the draw, etc) and Rudi was always overtly superhuman (even before the Sword). Unwelcome blemishes on
an otherwise spotless rug of realism.

Hard to believe the Haida haven't been wiped out. I mean really hard to believe, given the context.

Stirling, immensely talented writer though he is....will never, ever, sell me on the idea that the Iowans call themselves a
"Bossmandom". No. No.


Bottom Line:

I highly recommend this book. It's worth reading. The series looks to have found its way back from the Rudi Pit, and feels a
lot more like the first Trilogy than the Rudi books.



Anyone else read it yet?
 
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Sounds like I'll invest in it. I'd be the first to admit that the Emberverse has major, maaaaajor problems, but I still enjoy it. Largely because after the first book I just shrugged and went 'This ain't alternate history. It's schlock fantasy that just happens to be set in post-apocalyptic North America'. And whatever about Stirling, you have to admit he writes way better than a lot of modern fantasy authors.
 
Stirling, immensely talented writer though he is....will never, ever, sell me on the idea that the Iowans call themselves a
"Bossmandom". No. No.

Yeah, I never understood why they called him the Bossman in the first place. That is not a word I've ever heard anyone use.
 
Yeah, I never understood why they called him the Bossman in the first place. That is not a word I've ever heard anyone use.

I think it is a more informal take, they still call him Governor or President or whatever. Sort of like "His Majesty"
 
I think it is a more informal take, they still call him Governor or President or whatever. Sort of like "His Majesty"

Still, Bossman is a ridiculous word. But then Stirling's characters often do speak like humanoid simulacra that have just barely managed to scrape their way out of the uncanny valley, so perhaps it fits. But more likely he thinks Iowans would really call our leader that.
 
I thought 'Bossman' was a fairly generic term in the Emberverse for regional leaders - it was just that the Iowans were way more powerful than the rest, so their Bossman was particularly prominent. OK, it could have been better, but it always struck me as being the kind of name people who were feeling their way into the post-Change world would have come up with (as opposed to someone like Norman Arminger, who you got the feeling had been planning/praying for the Change long before it happened).
 
Rudi's story suffered much from the fact that there was no "anti-Rudi" on the side of the Good Guys, to balance him out.
There was nobody who was able to scupper a plan, or seriously interfere with what Rudi was doing, despite being on the same
I am a big Stirling fan, but I got fed up with the super-awesomeness of Rudi and how everyone seems to go out fo their way to agree with him. This is why I gave up a few books into the second series, after the one that ended with them getting the Sword on Nantucket. I was furious that he killed Oddard Liu. Not because I particularly liked the character, but because it seemed he was just killing a character for needless dramatic reasons that, hey, also offs one of the only ones in the quest group who wasn't a complete sycophant to Rudi. He had a lot of the same skillset (natural leadership and fighting skills), he was a vaguely Catholic instead of Pagan-whoa-how-cool-is-that, and he seemed a real, independent character with his own goals that run somewhat contrary to Rudi (impress and marry Mathilda so he could be Lord Protector). I always thought of him as a counterweight to Rudi within the group, but when he killed him it was pretty clear to me that he was intended, at most, to be a minor early rival and foil who's easily written off.

That said, is this book readable if I haven't read the last few books in the second series? I have a general idea of what shook out, but is it standalone enough that it'd be worth it?
 
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That said, is this book readable if I haven't read the last few books in the second series? I have a general idea of what shook out, but is it standalone enough that it'd be worth it?

Not really. At all. I suppose you could come into this cold, but it is a transition book, so you'd be both spoiling the last few books, and be sort of confused as to what exactly is going on until the narrative explains it (possibly 3/4 of the way into the book).

I would not recommend starting off with this book, or reading it before finishing the "Rudi Arc" of books 4-10....unless you simply couldn't get into those books due to Rudi. In that case, yeah, this book is a good way to give the series a second chance (as Stirling seems to have taken some of the criticism he got in the last few books under advisement).
 
Something caught my eye:

There was actually a civilized holding a couple of days’ travel away, closer to the coast around Cape Mendocino, one of the very few that had managed to pull through the Change Year.
---From the back half of The Given Sacrifice (where Ingolf is thinking about the area around Sonoma).


In TGP, the Dunedain mention getting help from the nearby "Barony of Misty Hills" (I'm guessing, from context, that it's the same place as mentioned above), and that it was rediscovered/contacted by Montival after the CUT War, and Rudi retroactively confirmed the Baron's title (implying that the Barony is in fealty to the High Kingdom).

Assuming this is supposed to be a pre-Change community in Humboldt County that made it through the Change....any guesses as to which community it is?




Also, apparently the McClintock's*, who were first mentioned late in the Rudi cycle (Lord of Mountains, maybe?) actually outnumber the McKenzies (numbering over 100k in CY46, and having sent ~10,000 armed personnel to fight at the Horse Heaven Hills two decades earlier). This is basically the most overt retcon yet, as it's implied that the McKenzies, at least, were in contact with them since right after the Change (Juniper having "influenced" their founders).


I do wish Stirling would ease back on the implication that, regardless of any factors, Montival is more advanced than anywhere else. We had the Iowans running about in armor (mail armor, when plate is easier to make and lighter, and Iowa having massively more industry) and weaponry that the Montivalans abandoned a decade earlier, everyone using the comparatively crude 'chete while the Montivalans use longswords, nobody but people close to Sam Aylward using the Longbow (except the British, of course), and the Japanese continually wanting to "take notes" about some Montivalan achievement. Montival is a bit like the nation-state version of Rudi...someone may be better than him at one single thing....but he's waaaay better than them at everything else. It begins to grate.
I really want to see a nation/state that qualitatively outdoes Montival.



*-why a fanatic Scottish reenactor/revivalist would make his little population center Pagan, instead of say...Calvinist/Baptist/etc...sort of confuses me (classical Scots culture being indelibly bound up with the National Covenant and Calvinist/Presbyterian history). It's a little too on the nose, and brings into question whether Stirling just can't bring himself not to splash Wicca all over the landscape. We've already had the Wiccan groups (like those in/around the Vogeler territory in Wisconsin, and in the early Protectorate) who somehow don't succumb to the overwhelmingly dominant surrounding culture...while the Christians/Agnostics in the same situation all become at least nominal wiccans. It does start to get a bit much, and the Author's Pet trope begins to rear its ugly head.
 
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We've already had the Wiccan groups (like those in/around the Vogeler territory in Wisconsin, and in the early Protectorate) who somehow don't succumb to the overwhelmingly dominant surrounding culture...while the Christians/Agnostics in the same situation all become at least nominal wiccans. It does start to get a bit much, and the Author's Pet trope begins to rear its ugly head.
Sometime in The Protector's War Nigel Loring recalls that when they were recolonizing Britain, guess who survived the 99.9% die off on the island? Wiccans. It gets to be a bit much.
 
Neopagans are primarily an urban/suburban-centered subculture. Much like the Black/Asian/Etc minorities that are primarily urban/suburban-centered, their survival rate should be fairly low (relative to the average).

Juniper's group is easy to accept, as pretty much all the Founder groups (outside of the early PPA) were more or less the product of freak coincidence after freak coincidence (which is repeatedly acknowledged, in-story).

The Norrheimers are also easy to accept.

The other groups (PPA Pagan Underground, Samantha's coven in Wisconsin, etc) are really hard to accept. Christians (including an entire town of Baptists who outnumber the Singing Moon coven) basically succumbed to very light social pressure and adopted Wicca (~30,000+ in a decade)....but Wiccans in Portland (during the "hang the infidels" period, as well as later) and isolated among Cheesehead Lutherans in Wisconsin...are just too hardcore to convert/adapt.



It's just another aspect of him allowing the Main Characters to sidestep the drawbacks of their society (as I mentioned, with the whole "inheritance always works* out conveniently" thing). Like when Rudi and Mathilda made Tiphaine immune from legal challenges....despite the fact that she had exploited the dueling system to murder people for decades, and it was now coming home to roost.
I like Tiphaine. She's an awesome character, but the epilogue to the CUT War should have had her killed in a duel by someone looking for justice/revenge, with the other characters helpless to intervene, because that's how the PPA was set up.


*-for some reason, the High Kingship/Queenship is passed down via Absolute Primogeniture (oldest child of either sex)....except that the Sword is what makes the High King/Queen. So if the Sword picks the younger sibling, there's problems (there is no hint that the law addresses this). Ditto with the leadership of the other groups (the Bearkillers, for some reason went immediately to Male-preference Primogeniture, with Mike Jr displacing the Twins....or Signe just loves her son more than her daughters....).
 
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Well, the twins seem to have chosen the Rangers and Astrid over the Bearkillers, so putting themselves out of the running.

I always though Astrid were subtly superhuman myself. Disappointed when she died.

As for the survival of the Wiccans, remember that the Powers do exist in this setting, andthat they were influencing their followers even before the change to improve their followers odds. Their greater rate of survival becomes more plausible whan you remember that they really do have Odin/William Walker etc looking out for them.
 
Well, the twins seem to have chosen the Rangers and Astrid over the Bearkillers, so putting themselves out of the running.

Yes, but the Twins were apparently never in the running for Bear Lord, to begin with. They had no connection with the Rangers (who were brand new) at the end of the first Trilogy, and Signe still went straight to Mike Jr when she pulled her psychic coup at Havel's funeral.

It's mentioned that they moved out to live with Astrid (which must have happened when they were fairly young teenagers, and which flies in the face of every other character, as the "independent phase" where you leave your parents seems to come rather later than in Pre-Change times) after Signe "became impossible" to live with. Maybe she was about to use them as matrimonial currency to shore up support for Mike Jr.

I always though Astrid were subtly superhuman myself. Disappointed when she died.
Astrid overstayed her welcome by being even worse than Juniper at being able to browbeat anyone into anything and win every argument (even when the other people have significant reasons not to agree). The fact that she has an unusual/unique eye color and can achieve flatly superhuman things (cutting dragonflies in half, on the wing, with battojutsu draws using longswords....not to mention flipping in mid-air while wearing armor when she's in her late 30's) began to pull her towards the "bad fanfiction character" ash heap.

As for the survival of the Wiccans, remember that the Powers do exist in this setting, andthat they were influencing their followers even before the change to improve their followers odds. Their greater rate of survival becomes more plausible whan you remember that they really do have Odin/William Walker etc looking out for them.
Which falls firmly into Author's Pet territory, as the running theme is that, post-Change, "all religions are true"...but the Wiccans are more favored than others.
Like I said, Juniper's bunch (prior to the whole "convert everyone within fifty miles" achievement) are totally acceptable. It's when, over the course of ten books, every either/or situation defaults in favor of the Wiccans (to include random McKenzies always winning every argument, even the inconsequential ones), that it gets a bit old.
Hell, Juniper (and other McKenzie priestesses) is literally using battlefield magic like "sleep" and "illusion", in a tactical role.


Stirling's a great writer, and I love his books, but he likes to repeat his favorite scenes again and again (oftentimes in the same book)...to the point that the Reader is often left rolling his/her eyes and muttering "...of course she/he/they did..." when the scene turns out exactly like it was telegraphed to.
 
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Yes, but the Twins were apparently never in the running for Bear Lord, to begin with. They had no connection with the Rangers (who were brand new) at the end of the first Trilogy, and Signe still went straight to Mike Jr when she pulled her psychic coup at Havel's funeral..

That is quite true. It might indeed reflect on the dynastic machinations of Signe. Maybe Signe was assuming that there would be a greater reversion in social mores after the Change than what actually took place, and tried to be in the forefront of that?

Astrid overstayed her welcome by being even worse than Juniper at being able to browbeat anyone into anything and win every argument (even when the other people have significant reasons not to agree). The fact that she has an unusual/unique eye color and can achieve flatly superhuman things (cutting dragonflies in half, on the wing, with battojutsu draws using longswords....not to mention flipping in mid-air while wearing armor when she's in her late 30's) began to pull her towards the "bad fanfiction character" ash heap.

I read that differently. I seem to remember that it was mentioned that most people realized that Astrid was bright-eyed insane. And that that was why they normally wouldn't argue too much with the friendly lunatic killer with the big sword.

And...I found the contrast between Tiphaine and Astrid quite interesting. Astrid and Lady Death started out as opposites and mortal enemies. After Astrid killed Tiphaine lover early on, Tiphaine was just waiting for her shot at revenge. But Tiphaine aged. It was mentioned several times. Astrid...didn't age.

To me, it seemed that reality, just having had its ass kicked by the change, took one look at Astrids total insane certainty, and just decided not to pick a fight there. Let her have her way. "Be Númenórean then, if its so goddam important to you. I'm going home. Have your weird eyes, see if I care."

(Or in other words, with things still being moderately plastic just after the change, and as we now know, amendable to mental effort, as sufficiently strong certainty might cause things to "set" slightly differently.)

As time passed, the increasing distance between what Astrid was capable off and where you expected humans at her age to peak was increasingly remarked on by the people around her. People with a good amount of insight into how highly trained people can get.

I thought Astrid was an example of something else. Not a high-performance human like Havel, nor channeling alien Powers like Juniper, but a tiny, tiny embryonic power in her own right.

A hundred years after the change, her "Númenóreans" were still capable of physical feats at, or over, the limit of human capacity. Even minor characters.

Which falls firmly into Author's Pet territory, as the running theme is that, post-Change, "all religions are true"...but the Wiccans are more favored than others.
Like I said, Juniper's bunch (prior to the whole "convert everyone within fifty miles" achievement) are totally acceptable. It's when, over the course of ten books, every either/or situation defaults in favor of the Wiccans (to include random McKenzies always winning every argument, even the inconsequential ones), that it gets a bit old.
Hell, Juniper (and other McKenzie priestesses) is literally using battlefield magic like "sleep" and "illusion", in a tactical role.

Its a fantasy series.

But while all religions are true, we've been shown quite clearly that there are factions among them, and they don't all have the same attitude to humanity. The Wiccans Powers seems to have taken a far more active interest in their followers than the other Powers we've seen. Didn't the Norrheimars receive prior warning of the change? Combine the wiccans much greater overlap with battle re-enactors and people trying to keep old crafts alive with their active supernatural support, and it is not inconsistent that they'd do better than other groups.

Stirling's a great writer, and I love his books, but he likes to repeat his favorite scenes again and again (oftentimes in the same book)...to the point that the Reader is often left rolling his/her eyes and muttering "...of course she/he/they did..." when the scene turns out exactly like it was telegraphed to.

Oh I hear you there. For example, I am heartily sick and tired of being told how the changelings are different from their parents, living more in the now, etc.
 
The first ten chapters left me unimpressed personally. Then the bits I read when I picked it up left me even less so.

The book honestly seems like a very bloated quest set up with characters having essentially much of the same dialogue and doing a bit less each time.

Though
the bit with the Haida shaman was unexpected and a little cool. I didn't read much after that which I found compelling though.

Maybe the next book will be better, we will have to see I guess, but I have my doubts. If he managed to screw up the Battle of Horse Heaven Hills I'm pretty sure he can screw up this quest series. So far with what seems to be bloat in this book I expect the quest to be fairly boring, maybe some fun action scenes, but this series seems to be heading in the same bloated direction as the last.
 
There is one thing I find it very hard to forgive Stirling: his depiction of the Irish.

In the Nantucket trilogy, though he makes a point to state that one of his Nantucketer Marines was a product of modern Ireland, he then gives the man an accent right out of the Quiet Man. Also, I'm Irish, and I don't drop random cúpla focail into my everyday speech - and neither would most Irish of my generation, yet he'd have us believe that a student from the 90s who's worked summers in the US does.
In the Emberverse...the Mackenzies. Who are referred to as 'stage Paddies', even though his real Irish aren't any better. More seriously, though...'Provoland'? Really? Because, apparently, that's what the Irish are famous for: drinking, ridiculous accents and the IRA.

Grrrrrrr......

In all seriousness, I've long realised that to Stirling, only Americans, Canadians and the British deserve to rule the world. But...'Provoland'? :mad:
 
In all seriousness, I've long realised that to Stirling, only Americans, Canadians and the British deserve to rule the world. But...'Provoland'? :mad:

Note that, in the new book, the big Hindu kingdom is officially the largest (in terms of population and actual cities) and most powerful nation on the planet.
 
There is one thing I find it very hard to forgive Stirling: his depiction of the Irish.

In the Nantucket trilogy, though he makes a point to state that one of his Nantucketer Marines was a product of modern Ireland, he then gives the man an accent right out of the Quiet Man. Also, I'm Irish, and I don't drop random cúpla focail into my everyday speech - and neither would most Irish of my generation, yet he'd have us believe that a student from the 90s who's worked summers in the US does.
In the Emberverse...the Mackenzies. Who are referred to as 'stage Paddies', even though his real Irish aren't any better. More seriously, though...'Provoland'? Really? Because, apparently, that's what the Irish are famous for: drinking, ridiculous accents and the IRA.

Grrrrrrr......

In all seriousness, I've long realised that to Stirling, only Americans, Canadians and the British deserve to rule the world. But...'Provoland'? :mad:

On that note he does have a fondness for national stereotypes (I mean you read some of his stereotypes of Muslims in works like Marching Through Georgia or the Peshawar Lancers and cringe a bit. Though he's never overtly awful about it I've found, save for maybe the Muslim pirates in the Protector's War) that does tend to seep into his works a bit.

Though it always confused me as to why the Irish split into three separate states versus two.
 
Plus, he does go out of his way to screw the USA too. Which is why, save MAYBE the Nantucket series, the USA always ends up wiped out nearly to a man, and then replaced with some neofuedalist Mary sues who are all into neopaganism and lesbian sex :rolleyes:

It's why I like all the fix fics for the Emberverse that nerf those tendencies right from the get go.
 
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