AHC: Lasting Pagan England

Orsino

Banned
With a POD not before the deaths of Aethelberht and Saebert in 616 AD, is it possible for paganism to win out in England long term? Could a pagan England even survive in a largely Christian Europe?
 
With a POD not before the deaths of Aethelberht and Saebert in 616 AD, is it possible for paganism to win out in England long term? Could a pagan England even survive in a largely Christian Europe?

Most probably not.

Inner pressure was probably an important factor, in spite of what Bede argued. While the post-Roman urban network in Britain was significantly weaker than in continental Europe, Irish missions and monasteries presences managed to maintain (and probably strengthen) a popular Christianism, while topped out by Anglo-Saxons rulers (maybe due to the political opposition between native and germanic entities that didn't really helped much to cultural mixing).

Anglo-Saxon Britain wasn't isolated from Europe either and ties over the Channel reappeared around the late VIth century (for what concerns eastern Britain, it can be argued they never really disappear for the western parts) : the presence of strong Christian entities on the continent (especially Francia for what concern southern kingdoms as Kent, Wessex, Sussex and East-Anglia, that were probably the most Christianized already) and their growing influence provided a diplomatic motivation, and therefore everything related (such as trade).

A bit more on the ideological side, Christian conception of the world allowed the strengthening of the germanic royal position, from a mix to priestly/warrior duties to a kingship associated to overlordship over a people, as God had on Earth; as well managing to swallow up more easily the Brittano-Roman population.

Giving these, both inner and outer pressures would probably be too strong to allow a long term pagan Anglo-Saxon ensemble.

It doesn't mean that it could be delayed : Aethelbert's conversion didn't launched a deep christianisation of Anglo-Saxons and pagan resurgences happened regularly.
With a Frankish-screw TL, maybe you could have a Christianisation of Anglo-Saxons happening rather in the VIIIth century, or even later.

But the lack of Anglo-Saxon political, but as well ritual, unity is going to be the main obstacle over this, when it'd come to face aformentioned pressures : if not Franks, then whoever would take their places (Goths, Gallo-Romans, etc.)
 
I think you'll need a two-pronged approach:

Prong 1: Delay the Christianization of England a few centuries.
Prong 2: VIKINGS!

If England was still partly pagan when the Norse invaded, then maybe they could undo the progress the monasteries had done. Certainly I could see people watching some Vikings pillaging a monastery saying "Well, so much for that god."
 
I think you'll need a two-pronged approach:

Prong 1: Delay the Christianization of England a few centuries.
Prong 2: VIKINGS!

If England was still partly pagan when the Norse invaded, then maybe they could undo the progress the monasteries had done. Certainly I could see people watching some Vikings pillaging a monastery saying "Well, so much for that god."
When England eventually gets unified, or when William conquers England, Christianity will eventually be enforced.
 
When England eventually gets unified, or when William conquers England, Christianity will eventually be enforced.

Neither of these events are pre-ordained. Especially the Norman conquest. Even iotl it was a close run thing.

That said, for anglo saxon paganism to survive, the church in the west needs to be broken. If not anglo saxon lands become the target of whatever christian power decides to try and 'save their souls'; either by a wave of missionaries or a sea of swords.
 
Neither of these events are pre-ordained. Especially the Norman conquest. Even iotl it was a close run thing.

That said, for anglo saxon paganism to survive, the church in the west needs to be broken. If not anglo saxon lands become the target of whatever christian power decides to try and 'save their souls'; either by a wave of missionaries or a sea of swords.
The TL was apparently exactly the same as OTL except that the missionaries came a few centuries later. So I will be assuming that both events happen.
 
With a POD not before the deaths of Aethelberht and Saebert in 616 AD, is it possible for paganism to win out in England long term? Could a pagan England even survive in a largely Christian Europe?

Well, if you wank Islam (Constantinople falls in 717, Franks lose badly at Toulouse in 721 or Poitiers-Tours at 732, and the Ummayads last a few more decades), that might do the trick. This is probably the most plausible way to get a long-run Frankish screw, short of wanking the Lombards or Saxons.

In-fact, instead of Christanization, you'd might end up with Edward Gibbon's speculation of what happened if Tours-Poitiers ended in a decisive Muslim victory.

"Perhaps the interpretation of the Koran would now be taught in the schools of Oxford, and her pulpits might demonstrate to a circumcised people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Mahomet."


But I haven't been on this board for a while, so I am not too certain what is this board's stance on a Muslim win at Poitiers-Tours scenario.
 
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But I haven't been on this board for a while, so I am not too certain what is this board's stance on a Muslim win at Poitiers-Tours scenario.
The consensus now seems to be that it was a raid rather than an attempt at conquest, and that the Arabs didn't have the manpower available to establish any significant long-term presence north of the Pyrenees,
 
The consensus now seems to be that it was a raid rather than an attempt at conquest, and that the Arabs didn't have the manpower available to establish any significant long-term presence north of the Pyrenees,

What about the earlier 721 invasion? It seems to have led to the occupation of Septimania for a few decades, and an Islamic Aquitaine and Septimania might be enough to screw the Franks quite badly.
 
It wouldn't help.

1) You confuse 721 and 718 expeditions, the second having led to "occupation" of Gothia (meaning one garrison in Narbonne/Arbûna, the rest being let to local nobility).
Even a victory at Toulouse would probably not impact Francia proper, to not talk the overblown 732 battle: it's not like Arabo-Berber victories in 725 in Burgundy and in Neustria provoked a Francia-scr

2) Frankish influence on England can be traced right from the VIth century, so a VIIIth PoD would have little chance to work there.
 
2) Frankish influence on England can be traced right from the VIth century, so a VIIIth PoD would have little chance to work there.

Wow, how did that influence work? Lancelot? Did Clovis and his Merovingian successors serve as vital trading partners or allies of the Romano-Britons or Anglo=Saxons?
 
I believe that, once the Frankish homelands on the Lower Rhine and in the Lowlands are converted to Catholicism, it's only a matter of time for remaining European pagans: They will become some kind of Christian just because the area along the Rhine (and on its western bank stretching to the Atlantic) was the beating demographic and economic heart of Europe north of the Alps and would remain so for a thousand years. Preserving Paganism in the face of that would be like trying to beat back the tide: With immense, strenuous effort it is possible, but it is an effort beyond most peoples in most times.

The best way to preserve a broader paganism is to have the Franks either not convert (probably difficult) or, instead, convert to Arianism. A Western Europe full of Arian Germanic kingdoms ruling over largely Nicene Catholic populations is not the kind of united European Christendom that can easily and frequently go on external adventures of conquest and conversion.

More importantly, in the long run, it's not a gigantic, impossible leap from the kind of sectarian tolerance that would have to develop in states like this to some kind of psuedo-religious tolerance that would allow for intercourse between a pagan Europe and Christian Europe. Especially if these non-Christian European religions evolve to become more institutionally and theologically complex along with the societies that support them, you may end up with a situation not entirely unlike what Christian Europe had with the Muslim world: An uneasy co-existence that flares up, from time to time, into warfare, but otherwise allows for the existence of commerce and other kinds of interchange.

This kind of PoD especially helps because it allows for the continued existence of mainland Germanic paganism not only on Great Britain, but also on the continent itself. A Britain isolated religiously except for Scandinavia is in a lot more difficult a position than a Britain joined to co-religiousists a quick trip across the North Sea on the Great European Plain.

It is, unfortunately, not before 616, but such a date might be almost impossible for what is being asked.
 
In this scenario, there would probably be a bunch of English Crusades starting around the late eleventh century. Pagan England just can't survive.

If the Vikings are in Wessex, lending cultural influence, encouraging the Normans not to become so Frenchified or Christianized, maybe the crusaders start in Paris rather than the channel?
 
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