AHC: Canada vs. the UK, USA and France
- Thread starter Superman
- Start date
It has to be after Confederation in 1867. Whether its a rebellion or an actual war depends on how you look at it.
Maybe the Fenians are far more successful. Britain gets involved to crush them, America gets involved because some Fenians massacre some Americans, and how about you have the British give more help to the French in Mexico, and in return the French help with the Fenians. This is just some spit balling
Emperor-of-New-Zealand
Kicked
Quebec tries to secede, France goes in in support of Quebec vs. Canada, Britain goes in in support of Canada vs. Quebec and France (Quebec still technically Canada), and the US jumps in in support of their own interests, invading both Canada's indiscriminately? Or supporting one side or the other.
What about Canada industrializes more than otl between 1867 and 1920, and a series of conservative governments block progressive Labour policies. Socialist revolution around 1920 which initially expels the conservative government. the British, French, and USA support the government in exile and intervene to put down the revolution. Would this count??
Why do you hate my country?
Okay, more seriously, this will not be pretty for us.
*runs away crying*
Yes, Canada HAS to be a country, or those of my family who fought in the First and Second World Wars will have fought in vain. Just to charitable, I won't include my great-grandfather, a veteran of the Union Army. It's hard to argue he was fighting for Canada while serving in a foreign army.
I don't. Canada's actually my second-favorite country.
Could something cause the Alaska Border Dispute to get out of control?
Yes, Canada HAS to be a country, or those of my family who fought in the First and Second World Wars will have fought in vain. Just to charitable, I won't include my great-grandfather, a veteran of the Union Army. It's hard to argue he was fighting for Canada while serving in a foreign army.
Look at my answer the AHC. I used the Fenians and basically had them do a lot better. They are a rebellion not a nation. ALso EoNZL used a rebellion. This is in no means an offence against Canada.
Or a similar idea from the opposite direction - Canada suffers more from the Great Depression and after labor riots in Quebec and the prairie provinces, there is a fascist coup in 1935. Since this is CANADA and not Spain, it gets a reaction from the United States which sends in the troops to support the pro-democracy elements, and Great Britain (because of Canada being a former colony etc) and France (to prevent the Francophones from being oppressed) come along for the ride. The fascists are defeated but the whole thing is destabilizing enough that the regions decide to all go their own way. British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec each become independent countries, the prairie provinces become a country, and I dunno about the Atlantic provinces. I'll arbitrarily say that they become a country, fish a lot, and get alternately dominated by Quebec and the USA depending on the political headwinds of any given decade. Quebec and Ontario do well for themselves economically due to industry and population, British Columbia does well for itself via trade with Asia and stuff, and the Prairies are oriented towards trading their farm production with the USA and the Canadian Balkans, picking up on the oil boom later. Not sure if they are prosperous, but when they prosper, that is what I see the the new countries prospering from.
WWII starts in 1938 since Hitler is hoping to benefit from the recent troubles in Canada, and is mildly more successful since the Allies had to mop up Canada. The war lasts until 1945 and is highly bloody. The USSR sheds territory to new states such as the Ukraine and old states such as Poland; Germany is divided into a Bavarian state, an eastern state and another state, and Austria (assuming they annexed Austria in the first place.) Poland takes whatever it can plausibly get in the German east. Most of central and eastern Europe is either nominally democratic with vague authoritarian tendencies for the next few decades, or just vaguely authoritarian for the next few decades, with a few exceptions and I don't know what the exceptions are. They're mostly not communist though. There's a movement towards democracy after some riots and unrest in the 1990s. Western Europe stays more or less democratic, with some problems periodically where it looks like things might go wrong.
The USA is on top in the world after the war, for basically the same reason as it was in our timeline, which is that everyone else got the hades bombed out of them and the US didn't, so their economy can dominate everyone else. It interferes abroad as it sees fit, with a similar rate of success and failure. South America looks different but not significantly different, same thing with Africa. The differences are mainly due to the USSR taking a bigger beating in WWII and being unable to stand up well after the war.
China goes authoritarian non-communist rather than going communist.Might be more friendly to the US than it was in RL. Korea becomes one state rather than two states. Japan is kind of democratized, rest of Asia goes however it goes most plausibly based on that.
Australia goes into the business of exporting poisonous animals to foreign spy agencies.
It's okay. I'm not offended, My reply wasn't meant to be taken seriously. It's all in good fun.
Redhand
Banned
This is actually alot easier than you might think. New fascist/commie Canada decides that St Pierre and Miquelon has had it too good and too French for too long and invades. France gets drawn in Falklands style and joins the UK US coalition to take back the Overseas Department.
I'm having a hard time believing that the military would stage a coup in such a situation unless they had promises from at least the American government that their new facist government would be recognized. I feel like any leaders trying to impose top-down ideological change are going to think about things like how ideological change will affect foreign relations before they act. Bottom-up ideological change (i.e. a revolution) on the other hand tends not be as good at planning ahead, which is why I feel that war with the USA is more likely to occur under this scenario.
On the other hand, maybe the facist coup does occur with promises of nonintervention from a conservative US president, who then is ousted in the next election and replaced with someone who is more anti-facist and supports intervention in Canada.
I could definitely see Ontario and Quebec going their separate ways, and to a certain extent BC as well, but I can't see either the prairie provinces or the Maritimes (there were not "Atlantic" provinces at this time because Newfoundland didn't join Canada until 1949) trying to go it on their own. This would be happening during an era where free trade is far from guaranteed, and the prairie provinces would need a guaranteed market for their grain. IMHO, BC and the prairies are more likely to stick together than fall apart, as BC's ports are useless without connection to the hinterland, while the prairies need a port through which to export their grain (Churchill, Manitoba just won't cut it). Similarly, the Maritimes, while they have some resources such as fish, pulpwood, coal, and potatoes are really dependent on having a hinterland connected to their ports. If Ontario and Quebec want to go their separate ways, they'll either petition to join the US or try to get Britain to take them under its wing again (this scenario could be plausible if Britain wants to use Halifax as a military base in North America in case of future uprisings).
Enough people seem to be responding to my "socialist revolution" scenario that I'm thinking I'll try to work out a quick TL:
1880s: Canada's "Liberal party" wins a number of electoral victories, bringing in a government that is pro-free-trade and opens up trade restrictions with the US
1890s: the Liberal party has begun to be dominated by Canada's few industrialists which enact policies to keep wages low and open borders to European immigrant workers. However, its free trade policies keep it supported by Canada's farmers. The Conservative party remains the official opposition and is dominated by pro-British reactionaries, but a series of hapless leaders prevent them from defeating the Liberals
1900s: industry is beginning to flock to Canada due to low wages and government subsidies, and many Canadian industries now export to the US. American leaders begin to call for the reinstatement of tariffs, but the Canadian industrialists running the Liberal party make sure to "donate" shares in their large companies to American presidential candidates. The Canadian Labour Party is founded by moderate labour leaders while the more radical ones go one to organize the underground Socialist Party. Labour-led strikes and protests are brutally repressed by police.
1910s: Toronto, Hamilton, Windsor, and St. Catherines have become the industrial centres of Ontario, with industrial output that rivals that of Detroit. Montreal, however is still the largest city (by far), the headquarters of the railroads and the banks, and the centre of political dissent where the Francophone working class is dominated by the Anglophone industrialist class. Winnipeg has grown into a small regional centre, and Halifax and Vancouver also have limited amounts of industry centred around their ports, but most of Canada outside of Ontario and Quebec is still largely rural. The Labour Party begins to gain votes every election until they reach 25% of the popular vote, while the Liberal Party sheds votes. The production of war material for WW1 leads to an economic boom and even further industrialization.
1921: The Liberal party is beset by a scandal, and they dip below 40% of the popular vote for the first time in 30 years. The 1921 elections see the Liberals capturing 37% of the vote and 38% of the seats in Parliament, Labour capturing 43% of the vote and 47% of the seats in Parliament, while the Conservative party is able to capture 15% of the seats with the remaining 20% of the vote. However, before the the Governor General calls upon the Labour party to form the government, the Liberals and Conservatives approach the Governor-General asking to form a coalition government headed by the Liberal leader. Labour leaders call "foul!" arguing that the Governor-General is loyal to the Industrialists and asking that they be given a chance to govern. However, the leader of the Labour party decides that the only constitutional method of challenging the Governor-General's decision is to go above the Governor-General to the King himself. A number of representatives of the Labour party depart for England to meet with the King.
1922: The result of the 1921 elections is met with unrest, particularly in Ontario and Quebec, where the Labour party received a majority of the popular vote. The Labour party, now anxious to be seen as a "legitimate" political party, refuses to associate itself with the protests, and membership in the underground Socialist party continues to grow, especially in Montreal. The protests turn into riots which turn into a revolution, and the Socialists take control of Montreal and Hamilton, with battles taking place in Toronto, Windsor, and Quebec City. Ottawa is almost surrounded, and the governor-general and the leaders of the Liberal and Conservative parties soon flee West by train to Winnipeg.
1923: The revolutionaries, arriving in Ottawa, call upon the Labour Party to form the new government. However, this government is led by the radical wing of the Labour Party, as the moderates are still in England (they have feared returning to Canada due to unrest). Meanwhile, the government in Winnipeg has called upon American assistance as new riots are growing in Winnipeg itself, and American troops first enter Canadian soil in Manitoba. The Socialist government in Ottawa objects to the presence of American troops in Canada and begins to raise its own revolutionary armies.
Later that year, the first direct confrontations are made between American and Revolutionary forces. The Americans succeed at taking control of Windsor and St. Catherines, but are stopped by the onset of winter.
1924: A British fleet arrives in Halifax, where the police are trying to maintain control in the name of the government in Winnipeg. The British are soon in control of all of the Maritime provinces, while the Americans are still supporting the Liberal-Conservative government in the West. The American troops are now in control of most of Southwestern Ontario but are stopped in their advance down the Richelieu River towards Montreal.
1925: The British have taken control of the Gaspé penninsula, but are having difficulty occupying it, despite the largely conservative, rural population. The problem is that the Francophone population objects to a British occupying force, so Britain calls in their ally France to aid with the occupation.
By the end of the year, the Americans control all of Ontario West of Kingston, and the Eastern Townships of Quebec, the British control the Maritimes, and the French have advanced to Quebec City. Montreal and Ottawa are the only cities still controlled by the revolutionaries, and the remaining Labour Party MPs in Ottawa (who have lost control of the Socialist-dominated government over the last few years) defect to join their colleagues who are with the British in Halifax. Soon talks of peace and rebuilding have begun.
1926: Through the peace talks, it is becoming clear that Canada can no longer be a united country. Having had a government Winnipeg for years, the Western provinces are no longer willing to be ruled from Ottawa, and a six-province Western Confederation is founded consisting of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Northwestern Ontario (renamed Superior), and Arctica (a province formed from a merger of the Northwest Territories, the Yukon, and the Ungava region of Quebec.). The Western Confederation is the part of Canada that remains a Dominion, and is the legal successor of pre-revolutionary Canada.
The Maritime Provinces have been happy under British occupation, and they choose to return to the status of a British colony, and are soon merged with Newfoundland. Eventually, they are renamed the Eastern Confederation and become a Dominion of their own, but remain poor compared to the Western Confederation, and dependent on the British military presence.
Southern Ontario and Quebec are handed over to British and French occupation, respectively. The Americans are already unhappy with the recolonization of the Maritimes, so they demand that Ontario and Quebec be reorganized as Republics. The Labour Party does go on to win the Presidential elections in both Ontario and Quebec. Once the occupation forces pull out in the 1930s, Ontario goes on to join the USA, and Quebec charts its own path as a Republic loosely allied with France.
1880s: Canada's "Liberal party" wins a number of electoral victories, bringing in a government that is pro-free-trade and opens up trade restrictions with the US
1890s: the Liberal party has begun to be dominated by Canada's few industrialists which enact policies to keep wages low and open borders to European immigrant workers. However, its free trade policies keep it supported by Canada's farmers. The Conservative party remains the official opposition and is dominated by pro-British reactionaries, but a series of hapless leaders prevent them from defeating the Liberals
1900s: industry is beginning to flock to Canada due to low wages and government subsidies, and many Canadian industries now export to the US. American leaders begin to call for the reinstatement of tariffs, but the Canadian industrialists running the Liberal party make sure to "donate" shares in their large companies to American presidential candidates. The Canadian Labour Party is founded by moderate labour leaders while the more radical ones go one to organize the underground Socialist Party. Labour-led strikes and protests are brutally repressed by police.
1910s: Toronto, Hamilton, Windsor, and St. Catherines have become the industrial centres of Ontario, with industrial output that rivals that of Detroit. Montreal, however is still the largest city (by far), the headquarters of the railroads and the banks, and the centre of political dissent where the Francophone working class is dominated by the Anglophone industrialist class. Winnipeg has grown into a small regional centre, and Halifax and Vancouver also have limited amounts of industry centred around their ports, but most of Canada outside of Ontario and Quebec is still largely rural. The Labour Party begins to gain votes every election until they reach 25% of the popular vote, while the Liberal Party sheds votes. The production of war material for WW1 leads to an economic boom and even further industrialization.
1921: The Liberal party is beset by a scandal, and they dip below 40% of the popular vote for the first time in 30 years. The 1921 elections see the Liberals capturing 37% of the vote and 38% of the seats in Parliament, Labour capturing 43% of the vote and 47% of the seats in Parliament, while the Conservative party is able to capture 15% of the seats with the remaining 20% of the vote. However, before the the Governor General calls upon the Labour party to form the government, the Liberals and Conservatives approach the Governor-General asking to form a coalition government headed by the Liberal leader. Labour leaders call "foul!" arguing that the Governor-General is loyal to the Industrialists and asking that they be given a chance to govern. However, the leader of the Labour party decides that the only constitutional method of challenging the Governor-General's decision is to go above the Governor-General to the King himself. A number of representatives of the Labour party depart for England to meet with the King.
1922: The result of the 1921 elections is met with unrest, particularly in Ontario and Quebec, where the Labour party received a majority of the popular vote. The Labour party, now anxious to be seen as a "legitimate" political party, refuses to associate itself with the protests, and membership in the underground Socialist party continues to grow, especially in Montreal. The protests turn into riots which turn into a revolution, and the Socialists take control of Montreal and Hamilton, with battles taking place in Toronto, Windsor, and Quebec City. Ottawa is almost surrounded, and the governor-general and the leaders of the Liberal and Conservative parties soon flee West by train to Winnipeg.
1923: The revolutionaries, arriving in Ottawa, call upon the Labour Party to form the new government. However, this government is led by the radical wing of the Labour Party, as the moderates are still in England (they have feared returning to Canada due to unrest). Meanwhile, the government in Winnipeg has called upon American assistance as new riots are growing in Winnipeg itself, and American troops first enter Canadian soil in Manitoba. The Socialist government in Ottawa objects to the presence of American troops in Canada and begins to raise its own revolutionary armies.
Later that year, the first direct confrontations are made between American and Revolutionary forces. The Americans succeed at taking control of Windsor and St. Catherines, but are stopped by the onset of winter.
1924: A British fleet arrives in Halifax, where the police are trying to maintain control in the name of the government in Winnipeg. The British are soon in control of all of the Maritime provinces, while the Americans are still supporting the Liberal-Conservative government in the West. The American troops are now in control of most of Southwestern Ontario but are stopped in their advance down the Richelieu River towards Montreal.
1925: The British have taken control of the Gaspé penninsula, but are having difficulty occupying it, despite the largely conservative, rural population. The problem is that the Francophone population objects to a British occupying force, so Britain calls in their ally France to aid with the occupation.
By the end of the year, the Americans control all of Ontario West of Kingston, and the Eastern Townships of Quebec, the British control the Maritimes, and the French have advanced to Quebec City. Montreal and Ottawa are the only cities still controlled by the revolutionaries, and the remaining Labour Party MPs in Ottawa (who have lost control of the Socialist-dominated government over the last few years) defect to join their colleagues who are with the British in Halifax. Soon talks of peace and rebuilding have begun.
1926: Through the peace talks, it is becoming clear that Canada can no longer be a united country. Having had a government Winnipeg for years, the Western provinces are no longer willing to be ruled from Ottawa, and a six-province Western Confederation is founded consisting of British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Northwestern Ontario (renamed Superior), and Arctica (a province formed from a merger of the Northwest Territories, the Yukon, and the Ungava region of Quebec.). The Western Confederation is the part of Canada that remains a Dominion, and is the legal successor of pre-revolutionary Canada.
The Maritime Provinces have been happy under British occupation, and they choose to return to the status of a British colony, and are soon merged with Newfoundland. Eventually, they are renamed the Eastern Confederation and become a Dominion of their own, but remain poor compared to the Western Confederation, and dependent on the British military presence.
Southern Ontario and Quebec are handed over to British and French occupation, respectively. The Americans are already unhappy with the recolonization of the Maritimes, so they demand that Ontario and Quebec be reorganized as Republics. The Labour Party does go on to win the Presidential elections in both Ontario and Quebec. Once the occupation forces pull out in the 1930s, Ontario goes on to join the USA, and Quebec charts its own path as a Republic loosely allied with France.
Redhand
Banned
That seems plausible and the part about French entry seemed reasonable enough. I figured that an attack on French territory would be needed, and I figured that island off Newfoundland could be attacked, but I think that you're probably right that the British might find French troops better for occupying Francophones. At this point in time the British and French are doing everything as a joint action and I think the French government would be receptive for calls for help from Britain.