Alternatives to sealion

Saphroneth

Banned
The one actually pursued OTL is in fact not a bad choice.
Try to scare Britain out of the war with the threat of an invasion. As per Bungay (Most Dangerous Enemy), there was a significant peace lobby in the UK. Absent Churchill, it may well have worked to get the UK out of the war.
Keeping them out of the war is another thing, especially once the atrocities surface and the UK is less apparently vulnerable.
 
I don't know if blockading Britain the same way the Allies successfully blockaded Japan would work though, as the US was participating (unofficially) in the Atlantic War.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I don't know if blockading Britain the same way the Allies successfully blockaded Japan would work though, as the US was participating (unofficially) in the Atlantic War.
OTL the problem of the U-boats was basically solved before US entry, actually... But having the sinkings come in a rush (i.e. the U-boats are committed in one big go in late 1940 or something) might help the morale panic effect.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Actually the best chance might rest with something the British considered doing; declaring war on the USSR during the Winter War:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#Franco-British_intervention_plans

If they had done that it might have radically changed the balance of forces in favour of the Axis.
Except that in that case the Allies cut off the rubber supply, thus buggering the ability of both powers to make trucks and gaskets and the like. Thus, economic warfare. (Buna doesn't work well enough yet in 1945 - it has to be eked out by the real stuff, which is why the 262's tires often exploded.)
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Declare victory and ask for a 1940 version of the Peace

What alternatives to sealion could Hitler have pursued to get Britain out of the war after the fall of France

  • Declare victory and ask for a 1940 version of the Peace of Amiens with the British;
  • Defend in the west, but abstain from hitting civilian targets - no Blitz, in other words;
  • Maintain the commerce war at sea as of 1940 rules of engagement, and don't give the Americans a reason to intervene;
  • Push the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact for all its worth, along with integrating the Vichy, Franco, and Italian economies as much as possible with that of Germany...
Can't go any worse than things did for them historically, and might actually develop into a stalemated sitzkrieg part II...

Best,
 
Quickly, not much. Most importantly, force the Luftwaffe to co-operate with the navy properly (Goering hated the navy and did everything possible to reduce the marine air force and cause them trouble), provide a decent anti-shipping force (i.e. better than the single squadron of Condors actually used) and do everything possible to stop British coastal shipping and damage the port facilities. Pretty much the Channel Battles/Kanal Kampf on steroids. Get the Italians to supply 100 SM 79 torpedo bombers instead of 100 rubbish bombers, sooner. Delay introduction of the magnetic mine until large numbers are available and mine the ports. Upgrade the U-boats with schnorkels (invented by the Dutch in the 1930s) and ramp up the U-boat production. Fix the torpedos and get a good supply of aerial torpedos.

Decide that it's going to be a long war and prepare for that instead of shutting down research projects, stopping new aircraft designs, demobilising etc. Pursue an indirect strategy: Take Malta and Gibraltar and make a decent effort in North Africa.
 
I'm not sure is Germany having a carrier would still work though, as the Graf Zeppelin class carrier was scrapped while Britain had loads of carriers. Even Japan with her carriers was defeated in the end but the victory was much more difficult to achieve.
 
How? It's not just a matter of trying.

Operation felix? This forum seems to think Felix is unfeasible but I don't see why that has to be the case. Hitler just has to lie to Franco and promise him the vichy possessions in North Africa he so desperately craves. Alternatively Hitler can ask for military access through Spain.
 

thaddeus

Donor
the one thing they could probably not accomplish, start destroying the Royal Navy.

for instance if the first mission of the Bismarck had been a success? https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=327211 and it resulted in TWO capital ships sunk? (or something along those lines) AND retreat to Norway.

signing the Paris Protocols with the Vichy regime, was tabled coincidentally the month after the Bismarck was sunk, might frighten the British about the intentions of the French fleet.

in other words anything that changes the naval balance.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
Operation felix? This forum seems to think Felix is unfeasible but I don't see why that has to be the case. Hitler just has to lie to Franco and promise him the vichy possessions in North Africa he so desperately craves. Alternatively Hitler can ask for military access through Spain.
In that case, Franco starts losing food and oil, as the RN starts interdicting his shipping. Spain, being war-weary after a really nasty civil war, isn't going to take this well and there may be further unrest.
(This is why Franco wouldn't go for it in the first place. He was a bastard, but he was a canny bastard.)
 
In that case, Franco starts losing food and oil, as the RN starts interdicting his shipping. Spain, being war-weary after a really nasty civil war, isn't going to take this well and there may be further unrest.
(This is why Franco wouldn't go for it in the first place. He was a bastard, but he was a canny bastard.)

True. Hitler said he would rather have all his teeth pulled out than have another meeting with Franco.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Operation felix? This forum seems to think Felix is unfeasible but I don't see why that has to be the case. Hitler just has to lie to Franco and promise him the vichy possessions in North Africa he so desperately craves. Alternatively Hitler can ask for military access through Spain.

In that case, Franco starts losing food and oil, as the RN starts interdicting his shipping. Spain, being war-weary after a really nasty civil war, isn't going to take this well and there may be further unrest.
(This is why Franco wouldn't go for it in the first place. He was a bastard, but he was a canny bastard.)

always look at it like Germany tried to placate both Spain and Vichy France and ended up with little gain from either. IMO they should have stuck with Spain and executed Case Anton a year earlier than IOTL (instead of invading USSR) and enlisted Spanish forces to garrison. "Spain may starve but not before France"
 
Operation Felix would have been a long shot given the power of the RN and the weakness of Germany's surface fleet. The plan for Axis occupation of the Canaries and of Spain's West African possessions was pie in the sky--they did not have the ships and their sub fleet had not yet been built up. If Germany went into Spain, the British would seize the Canaries quickly, build up air power there, destroy Spain's naval fleet and pummel any German ships that came near. German paratroopers might succeed in seizing one island but then they'd be cut off from supplies and wither on the vine. And if the Germans seized Gibraltar, then what? The British would simply do what they did in OTL--supply the desert war by way of the Cape and the air ferry routes across Central Africa. Finally, Germany would have to keep a large force in Spain, meaning (as in the case of Norway) less resources for Barbarossa. Furthermore, if all this was done without the consent of the Spanish government or the Spanish people, then the Germans might have been tied down (unlike in Norway) by a vigorous insurgency.
 

Redhand

Banned
Gibraltar was not doable, not without Franco, who has every reason to stay out of things. Malta, however, was. If the Italians had a plan in place and declared war while sending an invasion force, the RN wouldn't be able to interrupt it quickly enough. And once the Italians have Malta, the British aren't trying some amphibious assault to get it back in an area where they have no air superiority. You CANNOT do an amphibious assault without control of the skies.

And honestly, if Mussolini plays his cards right, he can take Cairo. He needs to appoint a capable commander in Libya and make sure that logistics do not become a problem, which they wouldn't be, if the advance into Egypt was deliberate and continuous rather than full of stops. The Western Desert Force would be annihilated in combat if the Italians took their advance seriously and with more professionalism.
 
Gibraltar was not doable, not without Franco, who has every reason to stay out of things. Malta, however, was. If the Italians had a plan in place and declared war while sending an invasion force, the RN wouldn't be able to interrupt it quickly enough. And once the Italians have Malta, the British aren't trying some amphibious assault to get it back in an area where they have no air superiority. You CANNOT do an amphibious assault without control of the skies.

And honestly, if Mussolini plays his cards right, he can take Cairo. He needs to appoint a capable commander in Libya and make sure that logistics do not become a problem, which they wouldn't be, if the advance into Egypt was deliberate and continuous rather than full of stops. The Western Desert Force would be annihilated in combat if the Italians took their advance seriously and with more professionalism.

Does Italy have any capable commanders who could have taken Cairo though? Most of the problem with the Italian military is the fact that their leadership is sub-par.
 

Deleted member 1487

Quickly, not much. Most importantly, force the Luftwaffe to co-operate with the navy properly (Goering hated the navy and did everything possible to reduce the marine air force and cause them trouble), provide a decent anti-shipping force (i.e. better than the single squadron of Condors actually used) and do everything possible to stop British coastal shipping and damage the port facilities. Pretty much the Channel Battles/Kanal Kampf on steroids. Get the Italians to supply 100 SM 79 torpedo bombers instead of 100 rubbish bombers, sooner. Delay introduction of the magnetic mine until large numbers are available and mine the ports. Upgrade the U-boats with schnorkels (invented by the Dutch in the 1930s) and ramp up the U-boat production. Fix the torpedos and get a good supply of aerial torpedos.

Decide that it's going to be a long war and prepare for that instead of shutting down research projects, stopping new aircraft designs, demobilising etc. Pursue an indirect strategy: Take Malta and Gibraltar and make a decent effort in North Africa.

Pretty much this. The pre-war war games for defeated Britain heavily supported this idea and LW intelligence was desperately pushing this strategy, but Jeschonnek, LW CoS, was pretty much the toady of Goering and Hitler, so he was unwilling to push it IOTL. This would have been a decisive blow, on the level of Operation Starvation against Japan, had the mines been delayed; the British IOTL were horrified at how effective the new German mines were and made it priority #1 to capture one; luckily the Germans mislaid one in the first couple months of the war right next to a British ordnance disposal facility on the Thames and for some reason the early versions of the German mines lacked anti-tamper triggers, so the Brits were able to disable and disassemble the mine and develop counter measures right at the beginning of the war. Had that not happened and the navy waited until May 1940 to deploy them en masse they would have likely cut off British shipping in all the Channels they were used in until one was captured; given that the 1940 vintage versions had anti-tamper triggers that would have been very hard to do.

As it was even with counter measures the British still lost well over 1 million tons of shipping to German mines in WW2.
 

thaddeus

Donor
This would have been a decisive blow, on the level of Operation Starvation against Japan, had the mines been delayed; the British IOTL were horrified at how effective the new German mines were and made it priority #1 to capture one; luckily the Germans mislaid one in the first couple months of the war right next to a British ordnance disposal facility on the Thames and for some reason the early versions of the German mines lacked anti-tamper triggers, so the Brits were able to disable and disassemble the mine and develop counter measures right at the beginning of the war. Had that not happened and the navy waited until May 1940 to deploy them en masse they would have likely cut off British shipping in all the Channels they were used in until one was captured; given that the 1940 vintage versions had anti-tamper triggers that would have been very hard to do.

As it was even with counter measures the British still lost well over 1 million tons of shipping to German mines in WW2.

"missed the boat"

not building the dedicated minelayer class http://german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/minelayer/minelayer/index.html

or greater numbers of flying boat BV-222 https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=326926 equipped to carry mines

the first could have carried a tremendous number of mines, the second could have transported them quickly, over a great range.
 
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