Would like help with an Independent Sicily TL.

Zioneer

Banned
So I'm rethinking an old idea of mine; an independent medieval Sicily TL. However, I'd like help with outlining the first few years, as I had trouble with keeping track of everything.

I intend to do a TL in the style of Basileus444's Age of Miracles TL, and I intend to cover most of Europe early on. I'm not entirely sure of the point of divergence I'd like, though I'm leaning towards one in the early days of the Norman kingdom of Sicily. I don't think I'll need advice on the POD, but I would like advice on how it might affect areas near Sicily. Though feel free to offer PoD suggestions if you want.

Overall, I'm most concerned about the Mediterranean, as that is where most of the initial action will take place.
 
Can it unite Italy later on?

I would like to see a Naples centered Italy.

Or can it be the kingdom of like 9 Sicily's :cool:

To be more constructive you should have Charles of Anjou fall off a cliff.
 
The beautiful thing about Norman Dicily is that they can (and often did) expand just about anywhere. From Robert Guiscsard to William the Good, you had Norman incursions into Greece, North Africa, and Egypt. You can have them unify Italy or attack the other side of the Adtiatic. It really depends on what direction you want them to take later - and how you keep the Holy Roman Empire off of their backs.
 
I think a POD with more of a preserved Muslim Sicilian culture would be really interesting, but that's just my opinion.
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
The beautiful thing about Norman Dicily is that they can (and often did) expand just about anywhere. From Robert Guiscsard to William the Good, you had Norman incursions into Greece, North Africa, and Egypt. You can have them unify Italy or attack the other side of the Adtiatic. It really depends on what direction you want them to take later - and how you keep the Holy Roman Empire off of their backs.

This...If there is one thing the Normans are known for, they really got around...literally.
 

Zioneer

Banned
The beautiful thing about Norman Dicily is that they can (and often did) expand just about anywhere. From Robert Guiscsard to William the Good, you had Norman incursions into Greece, North Africa, and Egypt. You can have them unify Italy or attack the other side of the Adtiatic. It really depends on what direction you want them to take later - and how you keep the Holy Roman Empire off of their backs.

That's exactly what I was going for in the first version of my Sicily TL; I wanted the Normans to survive and rule Sicily, and I wanted them to stay away from Greece (as I feel their obsession with invading the Byzantine Empire distracted and weakened them).

But other than that and an alliance with Hungary, I couldn't think of many sudden changes to the setting that would happen in my original PoD. My original PoD was the Norman anti-pope who crowned Roger II ending up more successful and accepted as legitimate Pope by all, therefore causing the Norman's attention to stray to consolidating Italy instead of invading Greece.

Is there a better PoD for a stable, lasting Norman Sicily? Or even a German Hohenstaufen Sicily?
 

Zioneer

Banned
When are you going to start this?

Well, I'm leaving the site for two years in a month, so I mainly just want to figure out ideas and write them out, and perhaps start a prologue or something similar.

Or if you meant what OTL years it will start within, it'll probably be somewhere between 1090 and 1180.
 
Well, I'm leaving the site for two years in a month, so I mainly just want to figure out ideas and write them out, and perhaps start a prologue or something similar.

Or if you meant what OTL years it will start within, it'll probably be somewhere between 1090 and 1180.

Why are you doing that? :confused:
 

Zioneer

Banned
Anyway, I'm planning on having a PoD set after Roger II becomes King of Sicily, but I'm not quite sure what the exact PoD should be. An earlier end to the rebellion that takes place after his coronation? The survival of his older sons? Possibly something to do with Tancred of Lecce?
 
Anyway, I'm planning on having a PoD set after Roger II becomes King of Sicily, but I'm not quite sure what the exact PoD should be. An earlier end to the rebellion that takes place after his coronation? The survival of his older sons? Possibly something to do with Tancred of Lecce?

I've always thought that having William II survive to have children of his own is a straightforward one - you have a surviving de Hauteville dynasty, the elimination of the HRE's claim on Sicily, and still a strong Sicilian state.
 

Zioneer

Banned
I've always thought that having William II survive to have children of his own is a straightforward one - you have a surviving de Hauteville dynasty, the elimination of the HRE's claim on Sicily, and still a strong Sicilian state.

Hmm, from what I understand, William II was kind of a terrible king, losing the African territories, being defeated by Isaac Angelos (I mean, come on, seriously?), and not bothering to really rule. And the power of the Sicilians seemed to be waning by then.

A good idea though; certainly William with kids despite Constance's marriage to the Imperial heir defuses both an HRE attack and an HRE usurpation.

Also, I'm not quite sure that I can do the historical figures in this period (Richard the Lionheart, Saladin, etc) justice. And I want to do something with Stephen of Blois and his family, though it's not absolutely required.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Maybe you can get Stephen of Blois on the Sicilian throne somehow.

Well, I don't know about that, but I do have a few initial ideas that I'd like input on, PoD and otherwise.

PoD Ideas:
-William II has multiple kids. This PoD would delay the HRE problem, though not entirely remove it.
-HRE loses interest in Sicily for whatever reason. Perhaps there's a long-term conflict in Bohemia or Poland, for example.
-Roger II's older sons, Roger III, Tancred, and/or Alfonso live longer than their father, and take the Kingdom in a different direction.
-Constance of Hautville is married to a different German prince instead of the heir to the HRE, therefore sowing discord between the Imperial family and whatever family is married into.
-Tancred of Sicily manages to outwit or outfight Richard the Lionheart and King Phillip of France, and keeps them from ruining his kingdom. I'm not sure where to go with this, but I like this PoD idea the best. Tancred seems like a fascinating character.
-Constance dies in childbirth/has no living heirs.
-Constance is married to an entirely different royal dynasty and Sicily falls to them instead of to the Germans.
-The Pope legitimizes Tancred as King of Sicily and excommunicates the Holy Roman Emperor if he tries to take Sicily.
-A PoD sometime in the 1130s, when Roger II is still consolidating his new kingdom?

EDIT: Also, this podcast has a good overview of all of Norman Sicily, so there's a couple of ideas here.

Other Ideas:
-As I said, I want to do something with Stephen of Blois's dynasty. Perhaps his sons survive and seek the throne of England? I really just don't want the Plantagenets to be on the throne of England; I find them boring.
-I want to do something with King Bela the Blind of Hungary, but it's not required.
-I'd like to see Aragon/Barcelona or another Mediterranian domain take an interest in Sicily, and perhaps replace the Norman dynasty...
-I'd like for Sicily to have more centralized, Byzantine-esque administration.
-Not sure what I want to do with the Byzantines, some of my PoD ideas are too late for the Komneos dynasty, and the Angelos seem to be uniformally awful.
-Need some ideas on the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire, I'm having trouble thinking of stuff for them.
 
Last edited:

Zioneer

Banned
I'm thinking of having a PoD during William I's reign; perhaps an earthquake destroys one of his pleasurable palaces while he is in it, and nearly kills him, inspiring him to instead become a well-learned ruler?

Or something happens during the last years of Roger II's reign to otherwise make William a better ruler?
 

Zioneer

Banned
Alright, so I've narrowed my PoD down to something involving William I. I'm leaning towards the "convenient earthquake almost kills the new king William, but he survives and the trauma of the experience makes him interested in kingship" idea, but if anyone has a better idea, then feel free to give me one.
 
Top