Secular Spain = Potential For Technological Advancement

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Mar 2, 2015

Spain's decision to expel skilled Jews and Muslims (as well as Moriscos) as well as its lack of emphasis on science, math, and arts in exchange for religion caused Spain to technologically lag over time. If Spain was more secular (like England or Netherlands) could it be able to breed people that could have become famous inventors?

Bonus points if you can get France to go through the same process.

St. Just · Mar 2, 2015

Someone tell El Greco and Goya they no longer count.

The expulsion of the Moriscos was a huge blow to Spain's human capital, but they weren't some grim theocracy devoted solely to God at the expense of science (which was very much helped out by the one and only Catholic Church, who helped patronize it).

And neither Britain or the Netherlands were secular; Britain was consumed by religious conflict (see: Civil War, English) and the Netherlands were a mix of Calvinist and Catholic. The difference they had was that they had developed an independent bourgeoisie in the major cities. The Dutch were largely urban, and London was as well.

Spain, on the other hand, had more bureaucratic monopolies on things, and had less of a bourgeoisie (except the New Christians and some native Christian petit bourgeois).

You want to know why Spain lagged, as opposed to the Proddies or France? Spain suffered inflation from New World gold, was constantly fighting in Italy, the Germanies, North Africa and the New World, and had to contend with a spate of fairly ineffective monarchs just as its competitors came into themselves.

And "breed people" in this context is so awkward...

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Mar 3, 2015

Tsar Gringo said:
Someone tell El Greco and Goya they no longer count.

The expulsion of the Moriscos was a huge blow to Spain's human capital, but they weren't some grim theocracy devoted solely to God at the expense of science (which was very much helped out by the one and only Catholic Church, who helped patronize it).

And neither Britain or the Netherlands were secular; Britain was consumed by religious conflict (see: Civil War, English) and the Netherlands were a mix of Calvinist and Catholic. The difference they had was that they had developed an independent bourgeoisie in the major cities. The Dutch were largely urban, and London was as well.

Spain, on the other hand, had more bureaucratic monopolies on things, and had less of a bourgeoisie (except the New Christians and some native Christian petit bourgeois).

You want to know why Spain lagged, as opposed to the Proddies or France? Spain suffered inflation from New World gold, was constantly fighting in Italy, the Germanies, North Africa and the New World, and had to contend with a spate of fairly ineffective monarchs just as its competitors came into themselves.

And "breed people" in this context is so awkward...

So how can the independent bourgeoisie develop, Spain to tackle inflation, and end the bureaucratic monopolies?

LSCatilina · Mar 3, 2015

RandomWriterGuy said:
Spain's decision to expel skilled Jews and Muslims (as well as Moriscos) as well as its lack of emphasis on science, math, and arts in exchange for religion caused Spain to technologically lag over time.

(Modified because it was too much aggressive. Sorry for overreacting.)
It's really a big affirmation to make, and I would have tought the situation to be more complex. As Tsar Gringo posted, there are other factors than religions that explain the Spanish decline, decline happening clearly later than what you describe.

Why do you think religion had such an impact and that Protestantism was more secular or science-friendly? After all the technical devellopment of late Medieval and Renaissance Spain are hardly backwaters compared to the rest of Europe.

Tsar Gringo said:
Spain suffered inflation from New World gold

Actually, that was partially proven wrong : American gold was used in spanish coinage only since the XVIIth century, and the american gold directly thesaurised by Italian and Netherland bankers.

RandomWriterGuy said:
So how can the independent bourgeoisie develop, Spain to tackle inflation, and end the bureaucratic monopolies?

There was an independent Spanish bourgeoisie that develloped itself, for example Catalan maritime elites, since the Middle-Ages. The difference being they didn't managed to form an elite class and more of a landed elite.

As for inflation, it was definitely more complicated, and not directly due to American gold, at least not trough coinage.

Why should they tackle bureaucratic monopolies instead to get associated to them? I mean, don't get me wrong, they could do that but why should it be better than not trying to crush the existant structures and develop on these instead?

St. Just · Mar 3, 2015

LSCatilina said:
Actually, that was partially proven wrong : American gold was used in spanish coinage only since the XVIIth century, and the american gold directly thesaurised by Italian and Netherland bankers.

Did not know that; thanks!

LSCatilina · Mar 3, 2015

Tsar Gringo said:
Did not know that; thanks!

It was a fairly recently prooved arguably, made less than 10 years ago, so it may take times before it's definitely widespread knowledge.

St. Just · Mar 3, 2015

LSCatilina said:
It was a fairly recently prooved arguably, made less than 20 years ago, so it may take times before it's definitely widespread knowledge.

Ah, gotcha. I was always taught the other theory, which was almost poetic (Spain lusts for gold, gold kills Spanish economy).

LSCatilina · Mar 3, 2015

Tsar Gringo said:
Ah, gotcha. I was always taught the other theory, which was almost poetic (Spain lusts for gold, gold kills Spanish economy).

(Made a mistake, it's less than 10 years ago, and the definitive analysis is even more recent).
Well, there's still a bit of that arguably. But it's less on the coinage than the introduction of silver and gold in international market provoking a more generalized inflation.

It's why the researchs are more focused on the impact of precious metal on european scale now, but if there's a relation, it is an indirect one and more global.

(And of course, the spanish coinage in Americas was made from local metal)

Odd_Numbered_Bonaparte · Mar 3, 2015

LSCatilina said:
(Made a mistake, it's less than 10 years ago, and the definitive analysis is even more recent).
Well, there's still a bit of that arguably. But it's less on the coinage than the introduction of silver and gold in international market provoking a more generalized inflation.

It's why the researchs are more focused on the impact of precious metal on european scale now, but if there's a relation, it is an indirect one and more global.

(And of course, the spanish coinage in Americas was made from local metal)

IIRC Spain's New World gold was largely redirected to the Indian Ocean trade right?

LSCatilina · Mar 3, 2015

Odd_Numbered_Bonaparte said:
IIRC Spain's New World gold was largely redirected to the Indian Ocean trade right?

It's hard to say without clear analyses. After all it was "common knowledge" it was injected into coinage.
So far, tough, I think it was mainly silved that was redirected to China's and India's trade, gold being thesaurised in Europe, used as coinage in Americas, and used for intercontinental trade.

LSCatilina · Mar 3, 2015

Another factors that should be taken in account are
- The plague that seriously blow Spain and its most wealthy regions by the XVIIth century
- An oudated and unfitting fiscal model
- Actual lack of bureaucratisation (less than being covered by red tape), or rather lack of a modern bureaucracy as it develloped elsewhere.

Basically, living too much on its successes and too prone to fall when circumstances were disfavourables. After all, why reform when all goes well? And once it goes bad, well...

So, interestingly, a more stable Spain may need to be less successful initially?

othyrsyde · Mar 3, 2015

LSCatilina said:
Basically, living too much on its successes and too prone to fall when circumstances were disfavourables. After all, why reform when all goes well? And once it goes bad, well...

So, interestingly, a more stable Spain may need to be less successful initially?

That's the same conclusion me and few others came to when exploring an initially less successful Spain.

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Mar 3, 2015

LSCatilina said:
There was an independent Spanish bourgeoisie that develloped itself, for example Catalan maritime elites, since the Middle-Ages. The difference being they didn't managed to form an elite class and more of a landed elite.

...

Why should they tackle bureaucratic monopolies instead to get associated to them? I mean, don't get me wrong, they could do that but why should it be better than not trying to crush the existant structures and develop on these instead?

It was because of England's parliament that allowed technological advances to happen because monarchs would restrict the advances to their use. How can the autocratic government can still remain and yet the promotion of arts and sciences can continue like in Parliamentary England?

LSCatilina · Mar 3, 2015

RandomWriterGuy said:
It was because of England's parliament that allowed technological advances to happen because monarchs would restrict the advances to their use.

That as well would ask for exemples, I think.

Using as an exemple the paragon of absolutism in policy (couldn't find a better resume, unfortunatly), it could even be considered flatly wrong.

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Mar 3, 2015

LSCatilina said:
That as well would ask for exemples, I think.

Using as an exemple the paragon of absolutism in policy (couldn't find a better resume, unfortunatly), it could even be considered flatly wrong.

I still wonder how England can do better (besides from the resources factor) in technological advancement. The parliamentary democracy was what some claimed allowed a inherent fostering of sciences, arts, and math.

St. Just · Mar 3, 2015

LSCatilina said:
It's hard to without clear analyses. After all it was "common knowledge" it was injected into coinage.
So far, tough, I think it was mainly silved that was redirected to China's and India's trade, gold being thesaurised in Europe, used as coinage in Americas, and used for intercontinental trade.

I remember the Chinese silver angle from Charles Mann. What do you mean by thesaurised?

LSCatilina said:
Another factors that should be taken in account are
- The plague that seriously blow Spain and its most wealthy regions by the XVIIth century
- An oudated and unfitting fiscal model
- Actual lack of bureaucratisation (less than being covered by red tape), or rather lack of a modern bureaucracy as it develloped elsewhere.

Basically, living too much on its successes and too prone to fall when circumstances were disfavourables. After all, why reform when all goes well? And once it goes bad, well...

So, interestingly, a more stable Spain may need to be less successful initially?

Was Philip II an example of more modern bureaucracy or just micromanagement?

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Mar 3, 2015

Religious freedom would help with preventing the brain drain, but do democracies necessarily help aid the progress of science and technology? I mean, how could the Spanish government and monarchy be able to foster the growth of these two areas besides ordering that to happen (and I mean not stalling that progress)? Can the institutions still be changed for the better? Or will that require a Glorious Revolution-type scenario?

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Mar 3, 2015

LSCatilina said:
Why should they tackle bureaucratic monopolies instead to get associated to them? I mean, don't get me wrong, they could do that but why should it be better than not trying to crush the existant structures and develop on these instead?

Give me any nation that had this thing happening and was able to make scientific and technological progress?

LSCatilina · Mar 3, 2015

Tsar Gringo said:
I remember the Chinese silver angle from Charles Mann. What do you mean by thesaurised?

Ah, bugger. I must have used another gallicism.
Apparently the translation is hoarding or pooling

Was Philip II an example of more modern bureaucracy or just micromanagement?

A bit of both, I would say. He was still largely influenced by imperial bureaucracy and his personal tendencies to micromanagement, which made him the step between Renaissance buraucracies and absolutist bureaucracies a la Louis XIV, in my opinion.

othyrsyde · Mar 3, 2015

RandomWriterGuy said:
Religious freedom would help with preventing the brain drain, but do democracies necessarily help aid the progress of science and technology?

Britain didn't have that though, they oppressed religious dissenters, especially Catholics. It had a lot to do with economic and political stability that came later on, which the parliament helped with. Also it had a social pressure valve in the form of how they colonized their colonies, which was also due to a lot of unforeseen circumstances. Originally Britain just wanted outposts to cross North America and reach the Pacific trade with Asia. They thought that the rest of the continent was as narrow as Mexico, as we know was not the case. So the colonies turned to anyway to make a profit, from being places dissidents and criminals could go and not bother the mother country and/or grow tobacco and other cash crops. This allowed the astounding population growth, which led to a greater and more stable wealth that all contributed to Britain's scientific advancements.