AHC: Kennedies Forever

In the 1973 film Executive Action, a cabal of eeevviilll industralists plot to assassinate John F. Kennedy, with one of the planners explaining the alternative is "two terms for JFK, two terms for Bobby and two for Ted".

How plausible is this scenario in the first place? Can RFK get elected in '68 after JFK finishes his two terms on schedule and Ted succeed Bobby in '76 (or any number of variations where all three become President at some point in time or other), or are they overhyping the "risk" of this happening to get the oil magnate played by Will Geer to go along with their plan?

Alternatively, each Kennedy wins an election twice, and they don't have to make it to the end of their second term.
 
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John F. Kennedy had underlying health issues. He likely wouldn't have lasted two full terms - and if he doesn't make it to the end, then you get LBJ instead.

Ted Kennedy didn't really want the Presidency. He was much more interested in the Congressional side of things.

So of those, Bobby Kennedy is the only one both willing and able to manage two full terms. Would he have won 1968? No idea. He'd have won 1972 if he had won 1968 though.
 
John F. Kennedy had underlying health issues. He likely wouldn't have lasted two full terms - and if he doesn't make it to the end, then you get LBJ instead.

Ted Kennedy didn't really want the Presidency. He was much more interested in the Congressional side of things.

So of those, Bobby Kennedy is the only one both willing and able to manage two full terms. Would he have won 1968? No idea. He'd have won 1972 if he had won 1968 though.
Noted, although Teddy's ambitions were definitely tempered by the deaths of his two brothers. I've made the challenge a bit easier considering this.
 
John F. Kennedy had underlying health issues. He likely wouldn't have lasted two full terms - and if he doesn't make it to the end, then you get LBJ instead.

Kennedy won't get magical death Addison's. That's a nasty trope that doesn't look at the context of human health and disease. Kennedy's health was stable and medicated. It's just that he may not have lived to 1980 had he lived because of his ailments.
 
Norton:

What would JFK do in his retirement?

Foremost, Kennedy's self concept was something to the effect that when he left office, he'd be too old to be retired but too young to write his memoirs, and would be in an odd area. There's been a bit of speculation on this. I think he could go the Clinton route of being a publicly active figure, which I don't think was really done at the time by retired presidents so it would be something new.I've also seen it said he could get into news publishing, which is an interesting idea.

If you want to know what his leisure time activities would be, I honestly don't know. He would write his memoirs at some point, though. That's what all the White House recording was partially for (the other part being that after Bay of Pigs, the people around him gave the media bunkum stories that they warned against it, when in reality they were all on board, which Kennedy didn't forget). As it stands, the closest thing we have to his own memoirs are those recordings Jackie Kennedy made. He'd also be pater familias of the Kennedy family, alongside his brothers; the OTL problem with the family was that it all fell to Ted Kennedy, who had to juggle his own life and issues with being everyone's uncle and being at every wedding and graduation and it wore it on him tremendously. I think that's what really undid Ted Kennedy

EDIT: And if the linking thing doesn't stop linking to "Ah.com/whatever I wanted to link" so the link doesn't actually work, I'm going to plotz.
 
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Bumpity bump.

Will JFK be able to finish his 8 years, and will the public accept one, or even two of his brothers in the big seat after that?
 

Realpolitik

Banned
Foremost, Kennedy's self concept was something to the effect that when he left office, he'd be too old to be retired but too young to write his memoirs, and would be in an odd area. There's been a bit of speculation on this. I think he could go the Clinton route of being a publicly active figure, which I don't think was really done at the time by retired presidents so it would be something new.I've also seen it said he could get into news publishing, which is an interesting idea.

If you want to know what his leisure time activities would be, I honestly don't know. He would write his memoirs at some point, though. That's what all the White House recording was partially for (the other part being that after Bay of Pigs, the people around him gave the media bunkum stories that they warned against it, when in reality they were all on board, which Kennedy didn't forget). As it stands, the closest thing we have to his own memoirs are those recordings Jackie Kennedy made. He'd also be pater familias of the Kennedy family, alongside his brothers; the OTL problem with the family was that it all fell to Ted Kennedy, who had to juggle his own life and issues with being everyone's uncle and being at every wedding and graduation and it wore it on him tremendously. I think that's what really undid Ted Kennedy

EDIT: And if the linking thing doesn't stop linking to "Ah.com/whatever I wanted to link" so the link doesn't actually work, I'm going to plotz.

I could see JFK being a "Clinton" like figure after his office, until his health forces him to take a lower profile. He strikes me as a "Reagan" type personality, without the ideological impact/beliefs or shifting from liberal consensus-more intelligent than thought of by detractors albeit not a "details" guy that blows you away intellectually like RFK or Nixon would, and just well liked, great with PR, and not haunted by demons constantly. Inspires. Great with leadership. He'll do his memoirs, obviously. He won't be a demigod like OTL, but he will be well remembered by the new millennium, even if things go a little bit sour in his second term(I don't see him screwing up Vietnam completely like LBJ did, but the issue is not going to magically go away either-Diem's murder is still there, and that triggers the cycle of coups in SV. Race will arguably be even more of a problem, as he will have a tougher time than Lyndon getting legislation through). He is just much more likeable and photogenic than LBJ was or is.

RFK was the brightest and the most hard working of the three, and very ambitious, driven, and somewhat introverted. Very Catholic and very passionate, which can backfire as well as help. Not as glamorous or as good with people personally (you loved or hated him) as his brothers, but very good at touching with the "ordinary people" at times. A more "Nixon" type personality-very bright and driven and "change the world" oriented, but also VERY VERY ruthless with occasional undemocratic/fanatic tendencies and very cold/"hater"(Papa Joe: "Bobby hates like me". He was every bit as cold as Nixon or Johnson could be, and perhaps that's why he disliked the former and HATED the latter-he saw his equals). Also very divisive, very introverted/socially awkward at times, but can also inspire fierce loyalty. He is uninterested in the legislature-all executive. He will try for the Presidency. If you butterfly JFK's assassination, it's a matter of debate whether he will get it or not, and that's something I need to think about a little more.

EMK is the best politician of the three, assuming he doesn't have wife and alcohol issues. An "LBJ" type personality, very good at personal relations and "greasing", but granted, less good at intimidating people and also simply not as intelligent or driven. He is warm with people, knows how to make deals and to deal with Congress, etc, in a way his brothers don't. He is very ambivalent about the executive branch. LBJ thought of him as a potential successor as the Senate dictator. Speaker or Senator, yes. President, no-his beliefs are a little out of tune with average Americans, unlike his brothers.

People assume the Kennedies were ideologically homogeneous. That's not true. EMK was much more of a classical liberal/New Dealist(busing). An idealist, very socially liberal, which often led to conflicts with his base. He represented the last gasp of the New Deal in 1980, really-and lost to Carter. RFK was more of a pragmatist, conservative "New Democrat". He was closer to Nixon (tax incentives and "black capitalism" was a policy they both proposed-focusing on improving the ghetto rather than moving people out of it) and Clinton (he credits RFK as his ideological inspiration, though I think RFK was somewhat more to left of him) than LBJ, and he even voted for Ike/Nixon in 1956 because he strongly disliked Stevenson. JFK was somewhere in between-more of a centrist type. Although, granted, all of them are pretty far to the left given today's environment.
 
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In the 1973 film Executive Action, a cabal of eeevviilll industralists plot to assassinate John F. Kennedy, with one of the planners explaining the alternative is "two terms for JFK, two terms for Bobby and two for Ted".

How plausible is this scenario in the first place?

Let's take it as given, and then address the stated proposition more literally - that is, how long can there be Presidents named Kennedy, descending from Joe?

And the answer, it turns out, is 24 years. As of 1984, there will be no descendant of Joe who is 35 years of age, has not already served two terms, and is named Kennedy, except Rose Marie who is permanently institutionalized.

Joe's other three daughters have all married, and aren't named Kennedy any more. (Kathleen was dead.)

None of the next generation are 35 yet.

Of the two sons-in-law - Peter Lawford died in 1984, and Sargent Shriver was 69.

Of course, if one goes back further, and spares Joe Jr, the four brothers could serve until 1992. This would butterfly their OTL marriages, but Bobby had three sons who were 35 by 1992; it seems likely that in any TL he would have at least one. And Joe jr would have had children as well. (Jack married late - his first child was (still-)born when he was 39, compared to 26 for Bobby and 28 for Ted.)
 
Ted Kennedy didn't really want the Presidency. He was much more interested in the Congressional side of things.

Tell that to Jimmy Carter

You wil need to get Ted some driving lessons. Sorry couldn't resist.

And join AA

Norton:

What would JFK do in his retirement?

Campaign for Democrats, especially his brothers

Let's take it as given, and then address the stated proposition more literally - that is, how long can there be Presidents named Kennedy, descending from Joe?

And the answer, it turns out, is 24 years.

Of course, if one goes back further, and spares Joe Jr, the four brothers could serve until 1992. This would butterfly their OTL marriages, but Bobby had three sons who were 35 by 1992; it seems likely that in any TL he would have at least one. And Joe jr would have had children as well. (Jack married late - his first child was (still-)born when he was 39, compared to 26 for Bobby and 28 for Ted.)

Joe Jr. of course was the son who was groomed as the first Irish Catholic POTUS by his father since the day his father got fired from his ambassadorship. And all indications (admittedly sparse at this distant point) are that he lacked Jack's health and sex addiction problems, Bobby's abrasiveness, and Teddy's alcoholism and womanizing issues.

So....1992? If you handwave the political realities of one party one family rule for 32 years, yes. But you'd need Skippy the Alien Space Bat to have the Republicans (or any opposition party) to be continually driving off the cliff of hyper-extremism for that long a time. Even in the Gilded Age and the Era of Good Feelings you still had an opposition party of some kind or another getting into the White House from time to time.
 

Realpolitik

Banned
And join AA

Heh, Johnson liked Teddy, but didn't respect him. ;) Nixon thought he was a deadbeat who would be on Skid Row if it wasn't for Papa Joe and Brothers Jack and Bob.

Both Johnson and Nixon were extremely jealous and baffled at how Teddy "got away" with Chappquiddick, and also annoyed at the "Kennedy crowd" that desperately tried to protect him.

To be fair, both of them would have caught hell that he didn't from the media, and they knew it.

From memory:

Johnson: "If I had been caught with a girl, and she was so much as stung by a bumblebee, they would have screamed for me to go to Sing Sing." Hell, the Camelot people would scream for his execution. And the peace movement? "He is murdering the Vietnamese. Now he is murdering US!" When he said this, it was in his post-Presidency period, so LBJ's opinion of the press (and "the East Coast Establishment" in general) wasn't exactly high-from the start, the Ranch was OFF LIMITS for reporters unless he explicitly approved it, and he made sure that they knew it. He was bitter.

Nixon: "I could not have helped but thinking that if anybody other than a Kennedy had done this and had given such a patently unacceptable excuse, the media and the people would not have let him go on in public life". And to be blunt, doubtless that "Richard M. Nixon" topped that list of those who wouldn't be spared if a Chappquiddick happened. (Apart from the patent absurdity of a girl being caught with Nixon, let alone drowned in a "Lover's Lane", can you imagine what the late Ben Bradlee would have done in contrast to OTL?) Granted, Nixon also knew that he was wounded and not getting "completely" out of this("too many reporters will want a Pulitzer over this"). Didn't stop him from harassing Teddy all he could or him being paranoid about Ted later. While Nixon did try to placate him occasionally-after his victory in 1972, he said "let's get along over the next 4 years and when I'm done, it's your turn"-he viewed Teddy as a threat constantly in his first term. "24 HOUR SURVEILLANCE." :D

EMK would later get his during Watergate, when he helped set up the committee and helped choose Archibald Cox as prosecutor. He was a very instrumental "hidden hand".

Maybe hyperbole, but all the same...
 
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Nixon thought he was a deadbeat who would be on Skid Row if it wasn't for Papa Joe and Brothers Jack and Bob.


Teddy was a deadbeat would have been on Skid Row if it wasn't for Papa Joe and Brothers Jack and Bob...
 
Heh, Johnson liked Teddy, but didn't respect him. ;) Nixon thought he was a deadbeat who would be on Skid Row if it wasn't for Papa Joe and Brothers Jack and Bob.

Both Johnson and Nixon were extremely jealous and baffled at how Teddy "got away" with Chappquiddick, and also annoyed at the "Kennedy crowd" that desperately tried to protect him.

To be fair, both of them would have caught hell that he didn't from the media, and they knew it.

From memory:

Johnson: "If I had been caught with a girl, and she was so much as stung by a bumblebee, they would have screamed for me to go to Sing Sing." Hell, the Camelot people would scream for his execution. And the peace movement? "He is murdering the Vietnamese. Now he is murdering US!" When he said this, it was in his post-Presidency period, so LBJ's opinion of the press (and "the East Coast Establishment" in general) wasn't exactly high-from the start, the Ranch was OFF LIMITS for reporters unless he explicitly approved it, and he made sure that they knew it. He was bitter.

Nixon: "I could not have helped but thinking that if anybody other than a Kennedy had done this and had given such a patently unacceptable excuse, the media and the people would not have let him go on in public life". And to be blunt, doubtless that "Richard M. Nixon" topped that list of those who wouldn't be spared if a Chappquiddick happened. (Apart from the patent absurdity of a girl being caught with Nixon, let alone drowned in a "Lover's Lane", can you imagine what the late Ben Bradlee [1] would have done in contrast to OTL?) Granted, Nixon also knew that he was wounded and not getting "completely" out of this("too many reporters will want a Pulitzer over this"). Didn't stop him from harassing Teddy all he could or him being paranoid about Ted later. While Nixon did try to placate him occasionally-after his victory in 1972, he said "let's get along over the next 4 years and when I'm done, it's your turn"-he viewed Teddy as a threat constantly in his first term. "24 HOUR SURVEILLANCE." :D

EMK would later get his during Watergate, when he helped set up the committee and helped choose Archibald Cox as prosecutor. He was a very instrumental "hidden hand".

Maybe hyperbole, [2] but all the same...

The Chappaquiddick fairy tale was very deliberately told before an audience of worshipful local press, not national, so there'd be no possibility of "hostile" questions, like:

"Senator, why is the clothing you are wearing, the same you had on last night, still dry and well-pressed?"

"Senator, what do you have to say about the local sheriff's deputy who says he saw a car matching the description of your vehicle being in a local lovers lane 45 minutes after what you claim was the time of the accident?"

"Senator, why were you going back and forth from your motel room to the front desk of the motel up until 3AM without telling the clerk of the accident?"

1] The closest that LBJ and Nixon ever got to karmic justice on this point was after their deaths, when Mike Wallace, in what was supposed to be a puff piece for 60 Minutes on the career of Ben Bradlee and his role in Watergate, turned his interview with Bradlee into a scorching indictment of Bradlee regarding his personal love affair with the Kennedies.

Wallace: "You claim you knew nothing about Jack Kennedy's affairs. I can tell you this-you are lying to me. And the audience watching this interview on television are saying to themselves: 'My God, Ben Bradlee is lying'." Bradlee responded with a crocodile smile, as if to say: 'And what are you going to do about it Mike?'

2] Not hyperbole
 

Realpolitik

Banned
Nixon thought he was a deadbeat who would be on Skid Row if it wasn't for Papa Joe and Brothers Jack and Bob.


Teddy was a deadbeat would have been on Skid Row if it wasn't for Papa Joe and Brothers Jack and Bob...

Oh, totally. Definitely the dumbest and most hapless of the three, his political skills aside(they were missing in action due to his personal troubles earlier on). And Norman Bourlaug's death was completely overshadowed thanks to that bastard dying and being worshipped for nonexistant successes. His greatest "achievement" in health care, was actually denying us universal healthcare. Twice(under Nixon and Carter). Because it was not perfect enough for him and a President he did not like/was locked in political combat with would get credit. It would not get raised again until Clinton as a result, and by then, the new conservative consensus dominated Washington.

Since there were people OTL who will not take Nixon's word on even the most obvious things-"Well, since Nixon was for detente, arms races aren't a bad idea"-I should add Carter didn't think much of him either, to boot. Even his own brothers thought he was dumb-JFK dubbed him "Fathead".
 
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Realpolitik

Banned
The Chappaquiddick fairy tale was very deliberately told before an audience of worshipful local press, not national, so there'd be no possibility of "hostile" questions, like:

"Senator, why is the clothing you are wearing, the same you had on last night, still dry and well-pressed?"

"Senator, what do you have to say about the local sheriff's deputy who says he saw a car matching the description of your vehicle being in a local lovers lane 45 minutes after what you claim was the time of the accident?"

"Senator, why were you going back and forth from your motel room to the front desk of the motel up until 3AM without telling the clerk of the accident?"

1] The closest that LBJ and Nixon ever got to karmic justice on this point was after their deaths, when Mike Wallace, in what was supposed to be a puff piece for 60 Minutes on the career of Ben Bradlee and his role in Watergate, turned his interview with Bradlee into a scorching indictment of Bradlee regarding his personal love affair with the Kennedies.

Wallace: "You claim you knew nothing about Jack Kennedy's affairs. I can tell you this-you are lying to me. And the audience watching this interview on television are saying to themselves: 'My God, Ben Bradlee is lying'." Bradlee responded with a crocodile smile, as if to say: 'And what are you going to do about it Mike?'

2] Not hyperbole

The Boston media really did cover his ass. Part of the reason Nixon was so obsessed with Chappaquiddick and wanted him "smeared" when it happened was he forecast this. And there is no doubt that, AT TIMES(and this IS NOT an excuse for them in the obvious areas), LBJ and RMN suffered from a double standard with a lot of "East Coast" types. The antipathy they suffered was not free of class/region based overtones.

The irony-or one of the biggest-of Watergate was, it decreased "their" power big time as well in the end. A new class moved across the river in DC and began to really effect things in the 80s... as well as a new media.

1) Bradlee had no problem with lying outright when he wanted to. He was an old Washington hand who knew the game well.

He also really flattered his ego a lot by thinking "he trusts me with everything as a friend", sort of like how a popular kid in high school gets hangers on from the next rung down. After all, his sister in law was screwing Jack at the time.

2) Well, again, I'm always a little cautious in taking guys like Johnson and Nixon directly, but...
 
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Realpolitik

Banned
One other funny Teddy story.

Pat Buchanan and Frank Rizzo are having lunch together in March of 1973, on the day that James McCord's letter to Sirica is revealed-the day that Watergate really began to bubble.

Rizzo(casually): "Why don't you just catch Teddy Kennedy with his pants down?"
Buchanan(irritated, to himself): "I think that's what we were trying to do."

The fact that they hadn't caught Teddy screwing up enough to get some headlines was evidently very surprising-judging from Rizzo's tone, he thought it would obviously be done. And Buchanan seems to be annoyed at the incompetence of Colson and his friends in such an obvious target. It speaks volumes not only about the reputation of EMK-less known than the dirty tricks pulled by Nixon's White House was the spectacular incompetence of some of them. :rolleyes:

The fact is, though the best politician and legislator of the three, he was just the weakest personally. The fact that it was an open secret hardly mattered when it came to the Mass. Senate seat, but that's only the first reason on why he just wasn't becoming President.
 
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The Chappaquiddick fairy tale was very deliberately told before an audience of worshipful local press, not national, so there'd be no possibility of "hostile" questions, like:

"Senator, why is the clothing you are wearing, the same you had on last night, still dry and well-pressed?"

"Senator, what do you have to say about the local sheriff's deputy who says he saw a car matching the description of your vehicle being in a local lovers lane 45 minutes after what you claim was the time of the accident?"

"Senator, why were you going back and forth from your motel room to the front desk of the motel up until 3AM without telling the clerk of the accident?"

1] The closest that LBJ and Nixon ever got to karmic justice on this point was after their deaths, when Mike Wallace, in what was supposed to be a puff piece for 60 Minutes on the career of Ben Bradlee and his role in Watergate, turned his interview with Bradlee into a scorching indictment of Bradlee regarding his personal love affair with the Kennedies.

Wallace: "You claim you knew nothing about Jack Kennedy's affairs. I can tell you this-you are lying to me. And the audience watching this interview on television are saying to themselves: 'My God, Ben Bradlee is lying'." Bradlee responded with a crocodile smile, as if to say: 'And what are you going to do about it Mike?'

2] Not hyperbole

What do you think happened? I always thought he was fooling around with girl while drunk or high and drove his car into the water, got out, made it to shore and passed out soon afterwards. However his clothes would have been wet not dry.
 
<snip>The fact is, though the best politician and legislator of the three, he was just the weakest personally. The fact that it was an open secret hardly mattered when it came to the Mass. Senate seat, but that's only the first reason on why he just wasn't becoming President.

Kennedy was often near or at the top of the list of Democratic presidential contenders immediately AFTER a losing election, but the closer to the next election, the more his numbers dropped as reality set in and Democratic primary voters would get less starry-eyed.:rolleyes:

What do you think happened? I always thought he was fooling around with girl while drunk or high and drove his car into the water, got out, made it to shore and passed out soon afterwards. However his clothes would have been wet not dry.

Long story. I'll have to post your answer after midnight, but it entails his not being in the car when it went into the water, and his being caught in a web of lies initially created to cover up a post-midnight makeout session that then turned into (without his knowledge at the time of course) a fatal motor vehicle accident.
 
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