Independent Medieval Finland

So right now I am playing as Karelia in CKII with my ultimate goal by then end of the game to unite the Finnish mainland (not including Estonia).

And that got me thinking; how would Finland survive the Medieval Era to survive as an independent country.

I imagine the conversion to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy must occur, as a previous discussion talked about a pagan Finland. And the power would have to centralized along the coast, where the economic power lies the most because of natural environment.

Beyond that, however, I am not sure.
 
And that got me thinking; how would Finland survive the Medieval Era to survive as an independent country.

Well, Finns were a bit backwards, on matter of societal organisation (it's less about Finland "surviving" as an independent country, but appearing as an independent and unified country) : by the IXth/Xth centuries we're talking more of an hillfort culture than a royal chiefdom or cyclical chiefdoms as it existed in Germanic Scandinavia.

Giving it's really right in front of Varangians/Gutar, and definitely on the trade roads trough Eastern Slavs, a Scandinavisation is really bound to happen with a medieval PoD.

That said, assuming a more disrupted Scandinavia (let's say in an non-Islam TL, provoking a really diminished Viking Age as a consequence) with a stronger Dane kingdoms unification, and weaker Swedes...

You could see a Scandinavian presence appearing slowly and getting more organised trough the Rus' way : a Germano-Finn entity (due to the proximity of Scandinavia, would probably be far more germanised than IOTL Rus').

That said, butterflying away the Volga/Persian trade way would probably make Finland less interesting immediatly, so I won't say that's the most obvious outcome.

But, eventually, having Scandinavian taking advantage of the hillfort Finn/Estii culture seems to me to be the safer bet for an independent Finland (likely something much divided, with different entities, safe cyclical chiefdoms). How long before it get absorbated by royal unification, though...

Other than that, any TL should include a Scandinavian-screw, and that's going to be really problematic, maybe requiring a really, really early PoD.
 
That is what I am thinking as well, with Sweden being screwed by a major event like Charlemagne taking the fight to the vikings (the plausibility of it happening I have no idea), and even then that might be too little, too late.

Thanks!
 
That is what I am thinking as well, with Sweden being screwed by a major event like Charlemagne taking the fight to the vikings (the plausibility of it happening I have no idea)
Well, you had something at this point : there's a reason why Danevirke or Limes Saxoniae were a thing.

But it was less for military conquest purposes, than counter-attack (I can't help but mention Charlemagne counter-attacked Danes with an elephant in 810), and eventually much more concerned Danes (and eventually, Franks seems to have favoured the diplomatic approach, meaning a conversion/alliance/clientelisation approach, as with Harald Klak, Hemming and Godfrid Haraldson) than Varangians. These weren't really a threat to Franks, even in the Viking Age.

I'm not too sure that, in the case Danes are clientelised (and there I think we're talking of Jutland rather than all of Dane lands, even if it can be a jumping point of "Carolingianized Danes" to unify other royal centers of power), that Gutes, Geats and Swedes have much to fear : Carolingian focus wasn't really too much on this region and the naval superiority of Scandinavian would have been a real problem in the contrary case.

That said, a quicker "re-integration" of Scandinavia with the rest of the continent may lead to mimetic organisation on the Baltic : there's a fair chance that Carolingian clientelisation provoked the organisation of Western Slavic entities trough this, and it could reach Finland (trough Scandinavisation, still, IMO) early enough to see structurated chiefdoms or cyclical chiefdoms appearing.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
I think its easier to have Independent Medieval Finland with Swedes King and Elite, Finns Kingdom is difficult.


have on some Civil War in Sweden, the King reward one of his brother/son with independent Finland.
 
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