Bouncing a timeline around in my head. The PoD would be the inclusion Saint Domingue (Haiti) in the Louisiana Purchase (when Tallyrand offers Livingston all of Louisiana, Livingston makes a sarcastic remark about adding Haiti and voila). My current thinking is that ultimately the Americans would prevail but it would take years and it would be a bloodbath. i would also think that American control over much of central and southern Haiti would be tenuous at best as they concentrate on building up the plantations on the northern plain. Thoughts?
Haiti as part of the Louisiana Purchase
- Thread starter Jbsmagic
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One of the main reasons Louisiana was given to the US was because Napoleon accepted the loss of Haiti as inevitable. A lot of the settled land in Louisiana was used to help feed the slaves in Haiti, without it everything except New Orleans is useless. Haiti wouldn't be lumped in because by then, they already were basically an independant nation.
Yeah, but it could just be to give the USA a casus belli to invade it. Granted, I don't know what interest the US would have in doing so and I'd doubt they'd really want to.
I can't see that happening. The US was mainly targeting the port and when France lopped on the extra land Jefferson knew it was a good deal and took it. There wasn't much of a hassle controlling the land except for the natives, but I don't think we were concerned about that at the time. Haiti, on the other hand, is a mess and would be worth too much to eeffectively controll. Expansionism wasn't really in the minds of America yet
I don't know how important Louisiana really was to Saint-Domingue; the latter flourished in the post-1763 period, after France had given Louisiana to Spain.
Napoleon reacquired Louisiana more because he was interested in creating a new French empire in North America. But with war with Britain about to resume, his priorities shifted back to Europe.
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Anyone have thoughts as to how an invasion/occupation would go? With the Americans being far closer than France, and not being bottled up by the BN, I would think that it would be possible. Any thoughts on how a long drawn out war would affect the public opinion of Jefferson and his party?
!Well he did originally feel that he didn't have the constitutional authority to do the Louisiana Purchase but times obviously changed his opinion. Not to mention he could have tried the whole using the citizen militia to do it. Possibly run into the same problem the US ran into during War of 1812: inexperienced irregulars were not effective against an experienced trained army.
Very badly. None of the French, British or Spanish were able to defeat the rebel forces. Toussaint commanded a large, well-disciplined army. Only through collaboration with him could any country rule Saint-Domingue, and the only country that could realistically do that (for the long run) was France, as Toussaint considered himself a Frenchman.
But by then Toussaint was gone, long gone. Dead even. Dessalines took over, but he was loathed by his people for his savagery against them (his history was rewritten years later as Haiti looked for founding fathers to revere). Spain, England, and France all had much longer supply lines etc to deal with. Any chance the Americans could have teamed up with Petion to take down Dessalines then inevitably turn on each other? I know the American's view on race was rather black and white (pun intended) but if push came to shove wouldn't they rather get in bed with someone who was a quadroon than a liberated slave?
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Terrible unless America is willing to send off at about a hundred thousand men to secure the place and brutally crush any and all opposition.
That was kind of my thinking. My guess is that Jefferson would let hubris think it would be an easy win (he did think Canada would be just a matter of marching a few years later, so military strategy isn't his strong suit). However, once he started the war he couldn't afford to lose. Losing against rebellious slaves would be a disaster for the Americans. It might greatly strengthen the Federalists though if/when the cost of the war becomes unpopular. He can't afford to lose, but he can't afford to fight it either.
There is no chance of this happening:
1. The French lost a 30,000 man army in Haiti, devastated by disease. That was larger than the US would field when being invaded in the war of 1812.
2. Jefferson would never want a large amount of freed slaves to join the US. Slaveowners were horrified at the Haitian Revolution but not enough to break the nation's budget to try to conquer Haiti and reenslave the population.
3. As was stated before, Jefferson was so anti-government that the crippled the already small US military. Madison had to deal with that legacy during the War of 1812 when he was starting from scratch.
1. The French lost a 30,000 man army in Haiti, devastated by disease. That was larger than the US would field when being invaded in the war of 1812.
2. Jefferson would never want a large amount of freed slaves to join the US. Slaveowners were horrified at the Haitian Revolution but not enough to break the nation's budget to try to conquer Haiti and reenslave the population.
3. As was stated before, Jefferson was so anti-government that the crippled the already small US military. Madison had to deal with that legacy during the War of 1812 when he was starting from scratch.
1. The army was around 30k for the War of 1812, but several hundred thousand militia were called up. Not saying the United States would have put half a million people on the island but 100k isn't out of the question.
2. Before the slave revolt in 1791 Saint Domingue had an enormous GDP (forget where I saw the actual number but it wasn't called the pearl of the Antilles for nothing). The potential wealth there would have to entice a large number of people. I also dont know that they would have been viewed as freed slaves. I could see that when it all settled out (with a significantly diminished Haitian population) that slavery would be re-imposed, ala Martinique (which I admit is a smaller island and population). I doubt the island would be fast tracked for statehood either way. A free black population that has been subdued and is a few hundred miles from the plantations on the mainland would be less of a threat to southern stability than the Negro fort in Florida.
3. Dont disagree with this one. I would expect it to be a meat grinder on the militias in particular. However during the War of 1812 Madison did come around to the viewpoint of a standing army, I would imaging some significant setbacks at the beginning would make Jefferson turn around on the issue too.
2. Before the slave revolt in 1791 Saint Domingue had an enormous GDP (forget where I saw the actual number but it wasn't called the pearl of the Antilles for nothing). The potential wealth there would have to entice a large number of people. I also dont know that they would have been viewed as freed slaves. I could see that when it all settled out (with a significantly diminished Haitian population) that slavery would be re-imposed, ala Martinique (which I admit is a smaller island and population). I doubt the island would be fast tracked for statehood either way. A free black population that has been subdued and is a few hundred miles from the plantations on the mainland would be less of a threat to southern stability than the Negro fort in Florida.
3. Dont disagree with this one. I would expect it to be a meat grinder on the militias in particular. However during the War of 1812 Madison did come around to the viewpoint of a standing army, I would imaging some significant setbacks at the beginning would make Jefferson turn around on the issue too.
Napoleonrules
Banned
The South would never have gone for the idea of incorporating Haiti when they have slavery and Haiti is one giant successful slave revolt. The South was scared enough with an independent Haiti, they don't want a black dominated state in the Union. Remember back then there was no concept of a US territory without the eventuality of statehood, it was an alien concept no one had even thought of or ever considered it could even happen.
Grant tried to annex Haiti, he got the Haitian dictator to agree to it; the plan was to have a Black dominated state that Blacks in the rest of the US would want to go live in, give them two senators and however many representatives in Congress, let them be heard, and basically segregate most Blacks out of the rest of the states. Kind of like what was tried with Liberia but this time as a state incorporated within the US. Only the fact of scandals about some kickbacks did this treaty get canned; we came awfully close to annexing Haiti.
Grant tried to annex Haiti, he got the Haitian dictator to agree to it; the plan was to have a Black dominated state that Blacks in the rest of the US would want to go live in, give them two senators and however many representatives in Congress, let them be heard, and basically segregate most Blacks out of the rest of the states. Kind of like what was tried with Liberia but this time as a state incorporated within the US. Only the fact of scandals about some kickbacks did this treaty get canned; we came awfully close to annexing Haiti.
Why did Napoleon not sell the other French Islands
One thing that I have wonder about is why did Napoleon not sell the other French Islands in the Caribbean and off the Canadian Coast to the United States? I am assuming that these islands were part of the French Empire at this time and they were equally in danger of being seized by Britain in time of war.
One thing that I have wonder about is why did Napoleon not sell the other French Islands in the Caribbean and off the Canadian Coast to the United States? I am assuming that these islands were part of the French Empire at this time and they were equally in danger of being seized by Britain in time of war.
Napoleonrules
Banned
The British had seized Guadaloupe during the Napoleonic wars and during the Vienna Congress there was a trade between Sweden and France to get it back (Britain had given it to the Swedes as part of the Anglo-Swedish alliance of 1813).
Thank you
Thank you, I did not know that.
What about the islands off of Canada? Did France control those at this time?
Stubear1012
Thank you, I did not know that.
What about the islands off of Canada? Did France control those at this time?
Stubear1012
Napoleonrules
Banned
Yes, St Pierre and Miquelon have been occupied by Britain in every instance of French and British fighting (including the US Revolutionary War) and each time Britain kicks out the French living there, sometimes tries to replace them with British settlers, and then in the peace treaty ending the war they give it back to the French after all that. Even during Napoleon's escape from Elba and the 100 Days the British occupied the islands in an irrationally overreaction and preventative measure.