Let's talk about the German Princedoms

Alrighty folks, Fjords here once again after failing to grasp the art of timelining, to gather information

So. Of the German Princedoms/Duchies/City States, which would be the most viable and interesting to write a timeline on? Not a wank, per se, but something in which a German Princedom/Duchy/State could be centered on, maybe leading to it being independent? Which were the most interesting? Which had the most potential to support itself?

I suggest Oldenburg, because of reasons

Fjords said:

So. Of the German Princedoms/Duchies/City States, which would be the most viable and interesting to write a timeline on? Not a wank, per se, but something in which a German Princedom/Duchy/State could be centered on, maybe leading to it being independent? Which were the most interesting? Which had the most potential to support itself?

Click to expand...

Sure, just let me try and remember what I read/research about the Holy Roman Empire's political structure and I'll answer your question!

[5 minutes later]

Well, I have a searing migraine and no desire to ever talk about anything German ever again. I don't know, a Schmalkaldic secession from the Empire that's successful could be interesting, I guess? Now excuse me while I lie down and inhale some painkillers.

In my opinion there are two factors needed to keep a small German state independent: 1) it has to be located on a periphery and 2) it needs to have access to useful resources and a usable base population.

So you need either a border state or one with a coastline (ideally at the North Sea), which isn't tiny farmland... I'd say that limits things to Württemberg (ideally if it were to expand towards the Rhine), Bavaria, Oldenburg, Hanover and potentially Julich-Cleves-Berg (if it expands down south AND you'd need to avoid the Hohenzollerns inheriting it). So the list is pretty limited.

Hamburg could also be a possibility, acting as a buffer between Danish-controlled Holstein and the more "normal" German states.

I suggest Saxony - at the time when the Saxon king was also (elected) king of Poland - maybe this time the Swedes run out of luck earlier - A Saxo-Polish/Lithuanian changes the dynamics in many interesting ways.

Maybe ist possible that the Saxons trade away Danzig for a corridor between Saxony and Poland. This might prevent Silesia falling into Prussian Hands

Prior to the Thirty Years' War, there was a possibility of secession on the northern periphery. Just as the Netherlands at some point de facto left the Empire (only formally recognised in 1648), so might other entities. The problem is that membership in the Empire was still a useful bargaining chip against the claims of the Scandinavian kingdoms. Remove that problem, and you could see Mecklenburg, Oldenburg, Lübeck and others acting as independent states.

My favourite scenario is a Helvetic Conferedation analogue between the Dithmarscher and Frisian republics and the Hanseatic Cities, but that's just silly in terms of plausibility.

How about an Ostfriesland which survives beyond 1744, has to deal with Napoleon and a growing Netherlands to the West (with some Frisians feeling more Dutch than German) and then some sort of agrarian revolution against the grievously unpopular Cirksena family in the closing stages of the First World War?

carlton beat me. I always find the prospect of a growing Hanse fascinating.

A Frankfurt banking republic would be pretty cool (yes I'm aware it was a free city IOTL) along the lines of the north Italian city-states.

Stretching the definition of German slightly, as in German ruling class, but otherwise Polish/Lithuanian, Kurland would be interesting. It had a very short heyday from 1642 until 1655, when it was occupied by the Swedish. But maybe the duke could be able to negotiate a degree of immunity out of one of the biggest (trading, but the difference is not very pronounce yet) fleets in Europe and the dukedoms iron and gun powder production facilities. The dukedom would have to constantly balance Russia, Sweden and Poland against each other to retain independence, but a success of its economic policies bigger than otl might make it more important for the three competing powers to keep eachother out of it instead of taking it themselves.

And then there is of course Saxony, which constantly underperformed, though it had far better conditions than Brandenburg after 1648.

Some state west of the Rhine would be cool, Lorraine/Lothringen, Luxemburg, the Palatinate, the area of modern Belgium etc. Basically any prince around the the HRE/French border successfully surviving as an independent ruler would be a nice challenge. Or if you like the challenge, do something with Trier, Cologne or Mainz, the three Archbishop Electors.

Another nice story would be one of a more successful Saxony which overtakes Brandenburg/Prussia is the dominant force in northern Germany.

A more powerful state in the northwest (of modern Germany) becoming more influential. Be it a larger Hanover, a more united Lower Saxony, some kind of more coherent Hanseatic League, thre are many choices. Could even have a kind of hybrid story with Lower Saxony being part of Denmark or the other way around.

Another interesting story I just thought about that is often overlooked would be the following. What if the Low Countries remained a part of the HRE? Would have fairly huge consequences, and not a hard thing to change.

Also you could also move outside of Germany and go for some kind of German Prince/King in the Baltics, in Denmark, Poland, Czechia, Hungary or the Balkans, even North Italy.

Bavaria!

Reasons:

The most cool flag - imagine an Empire in those colours!

The most cool uniforms - those skyblue coats and raupenhelms are superb!

The best beer - speaks for itself, and add the dresses of those cute Bavarian girls serving it!

Bavaria actually was a serious threat to Prussia's hegemony over Germany

I'd like to see an earlier and stronger Westphalian state, maybe one with influences from the "Rhinish" dialect of the south-eastern netherlands.

One of the Stadtebund (town leagues) might be interesting: the Rhine (or Rhenish) League of 1254, which included Mainz and Worms and destroyed numerous raubritter (robber barons), but OTL ended up very short-lived; or maybe the much larger Swabian League of 1488, comprising 22 Imperical cities, numerous princes, and the archbishops of Mainz and Trier. I'm sure there were other leagues as well.

One of the Imperial Circles might interest you. The Upper Rhenish Circle included Lorraine, Verdun, Rheims and much more.

carlton_bach said:

Prior to the Thirty Years' War, there was a possibility of secession on the northern periphery. Just as the Netherlands at some point de facto left the Empire (only formally recognised in 1648), so might other entities. The problem is that membership in the Empire was still a useful bargaining chip against the claims of the Scandinavian kingdoms. Remove that problem, and you could see Mecklenburg, Oldenburg, Lübeck and others acting as independent states.

My favourite scenario is a Helvetic Conferedation analogue between the Dithmarscher and Frisian republics and the Hanseatic Cities, but that's just silly in terms of plausibility.

Click to expand...

I was (and still am) interested in a Hansa tl. The problem is, that the Hansa and it politics was just such a mess. My POD would have been Margarete dieing while still in Norway and the Cologne federation (?) staying in control of some fortresses in Denmark and in the end bringing the cities of Holland and the German coast closer together. Adding a bit of a Bremen wank (wanking your home country is boring, wank your home city) and a Dominium Visurgis (+ Domium Albisplenarium and other equivalent dominii).

But it is implausible. And would be hard to write, because of all this messyness. The EU is nothing copared to the Hansa and all the other alliances of those times.

Fjords said:

Alrighty folks, Fjords here once again after failing to grasp the art of timelining, to gather information

So. Of the German Princedoms/Duchies/City States, which would be the most viable and interesting to write a timeline on? Not a wank, per se, but something in which a German Princedom/Duchy/State could be centered on, maybe leading to it being independent? Which were the most interesting? Which had the most potential to support itself?

Click to expand...

That is a good question.

Bavaria would be rather easy, since it happened to keep its old ducal coherence.

Württemberg was the princely director of the Swabian Circle, with some potential.

Hesse, if they do not split the inheritance. But the long-term rivalyry with the archbishops of Mainz was an annoyance. And they are in the centre of gravity for Germany, the Rhein-Main area.

The OTL or an ATL conglomerater of the smaller Rhenish-Westphalian duchies and counties.

Greater Mecklenburg would be hard.

One

what about Duchy of Savoy ? could it expand North to reach Rhine ? German state with Med coast would be interesting. did German ever used as language in Savoy court ?

If Hesse became independent, what should its new name be: Kassel-Darmstadt or Darmstadt-Kassel?
Shall the new country be a Landgraviate or a Grand Duchy?

The Anscarids (rulers of Anhalt) either never lose Brandenburg or see it restored to them at some point, thereby leaving all of the main branches of the Hohenzollerns much more confined to southern, much more Catholic areas of Germany.

LeopoldPhilippe said:

If Hesse became independent, what should its new name be: Kassel-Darmstadt or Darmstadt-Kassel?
Shall the new country be a Landgraviate or a Grand Duchy?

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Well, Hesse was splintered due to dynastic reasons, with each side-branch of the House of Hesse getting their own fiefdom. If they were united, just calling it the Grand Duchy or Kingdom of Hesse would be the best bet, especially since the term Landgraviate is equivalent to Duchy (HRE's concept of nobility is/was somewhat confusing).