AHC/WI France, Spain, and Portugal join the Protestant Reformation

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Apr 20, 2015

Like England France and Spain had disputes with popes so my challenge is to get these two nations to get into dispute with the Church to the point they break off permanently and explain the consequences.

Oh and what happens in Spain is most likely going to happen in Portgual which explains the part of the title.

Yuelang · Apr 20, 2015

At this rate, if Spain and France join in the fray...

I can see John Calvin end up spearheading the invasion to Rome and declare Papal rules as antichrist. Or he take the position of Pope Calvin I and then reform the Catholic Church...

Gog (♀) · Apr 20, 2015

It is easier to get the French in as they had a significant protests at movement, but I cnat think of anything for the Iberians.

If that happens you could see Catholocism becoming de facto defunct as the Italian princes would change for fear of some sort of crusade

It would be very intersting if the pope flees to the new world, that would be an intersting TL

Yuelang · Apr 20, 2015

Gog3451 said:
It would be very intersting if the pope flees to the new world, that would be an intersting TL

Nah, Pope flees to Japan... who end up converted into Catholicism while Europe engulfed in waves of Protestantism...

Fast Forward and we have Catholic East Asia ..

Gog (♀) · Apr 20, 2015

Yuelang said:
Nah, Pope flees to Japan... who end up converted into Catholicism while Europe engulfed in waves of Protestantism...

Fast Forward and we have Catholic East Asia ..

Now that would be harder but more intersting as well

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Apr 20, 2015

Yuelang said:
At this rate, if Spain and France join in the fray...

I can see John Calvin end up spearheading the invasion to Rome and declare Papal rules as antichrist. Or he take the position of Pope Calvin I and then reform the Catholic Church...

Gog3451 said:
It is easier to get the French in as they had a significant protests at movement, but I cnat think of anything for the Iberians.

If that happens you could see Catholocism becoming de facto defunct as the Italian princes would change for fear of some sort of crusade

It would be very intersting if the pope flees to the new world, that would be an intersting TL

Would the other Catholic nations accept the changes and break away as well therefore rendering the Roman Church defunct? And would the existing Protestant nations return if the Church is reformed?

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Apr 20, 2015

Hallo anyone anymore?

funnyhat · Apr 20, 2015

If you have no Concordat of Bologna of 1516, a French conversion to Protestantism becomes more plausible. That arrangement gave the French king substantial control over the church in France, so there was limited need to break away. Henry VIII longed for the same kind of deal in England but never got it, and the rest is history.

Spain is trickier.

FeldMarshall30 · Apr 20, 2015

If thats the case many of the cultures of western colonies would screw up,
like no catholics in cajun south, and a islamic philippines for example

TickTock The Witch's Dead · Apr 21, 2015

FeldMarshall30 said:
If thats the case many of the cultures of western colonies would screw up,
like no catholics in cajun south, and a islamic philippines for example

Why? Aren't there Europeans already?

twovultures · Apr 21, 2015

RandomWriterGuy said:
Why? Aren't there Europeans already?

Yes, but butterflies from conversions/change in policies in the homeland could significantly effect immigration.

For example if Spain actually went Protestant, the massive, earth-shattering cultural upheaval could lead to its colonies seceding from the empire (or trying to) more than a century before they did IOTL.

In a more likely scenario of a French conversion, IOTL you had a lot of Huguenots who were interested in the colonization scene. But without the pressure to create colonies that could serve as safe havens, France may have fewer patrons of colonization projects and therefore fewer overseas colonies than it did during the first wave of European colonialism.

funnyhat · Apr 21, 2015

twovultures said:
Yes, but butterflies from conversions/change in policies in the homeland could significantly affect immigration.

For example if Spain actually went Protestant, the massive, earth-shattering cultural upheaval could lead to its colonies seceding from the empire (or trying to) more than a century before they did IOTL.

If Spain were to go Protestant, that would most likely have been in the first half of the 16th century, when its colonies were in their infancy. While you'd most likely have different patterns of colonization, I don't think the colonies would be established strongly enough to want to secede.

Gog (♀) · Apr 21, 2015

funnyhat said:
If Spain were to go Protestant, that would most likely have been in the first half of the 16th century, when its colonies were in their infancy. While you'd most likely have different patterns of colonization, I don't think the colonies would be established strongly enough to want to secede.

Only Cuba could at that time

twovultures · Apr 21, 2015

funnyhat said:
If Spain were to go Protestant, that would most likely have been in the first half of the 16th century, when its colonies were in their infancy. While you'd most likely have different patterns of colonization, I don't think the colonies would be established strongly enough to want to secede.

Good point. But it would be interesting to see how it plays out in the colonies-in at least some areas, a power struggle between Protestant and Spanish colonial authorities could give an opening for some successful Indian rebellions. I don't know how long they could keep their independence once Protestant Spain solidifies its hold on the colonies, but it would be an interesting chapter in history no matter what happens.