AHC\WI: Islamic Celts?

Same inspiration as for the Islamic England thread.

Discuss!

ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE CELTS TO BE ISLAMIC

The Celts adopted Christianity between 401 and 500 AD.

Islam did not begin until 22 December 609, a minimum of 110 years after Christianity had started to be preached in the Celtic nation.

Changing the state religion after this is impossible, Ireland will not denounce the words of St Patrick.

You could try turning the Celts Jewish
 
Strangely enough, not as deeply random than Islamic England.

Have a more important Brittonic migration in Galicia (Bretagne-scale) in order to have an actual celtic population there (instead of a baffling wishful thinking).
Eventually you may end with a *Breton nobility and population at least really present in northern Galicia (a bit like Bretagne is divided in romance and celtic parts).

With an Arabo-Islamic conquest still happening, have it being more successful in N-W, and you may end with *Breton muladi similar to Banu Qasi.
 
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I wonder if the Galatian Celts could survive in Anatolia and somehow convert to Islam.

Well, they did. They seems to have preserved, while deeply hellenized, their language up to the IVth century at least, and as well maintained a distinct (if more and more provincial and helleno-romanised) identity. I'm not sure it would count as Celts after the Vth century, though.
An earlier Fall of Rome, including in the East, could do it but it would probably butterfly as well Islam.
 
ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE CELTS TO BE ISLAMIC

The Celts adopted Christianity between 401 and 500 AD.

Islam did not begin until 22 December 609, a minimum of 110 years after Christianity had started to be preached in the Celtic nation.

Changing the state religion after this is impossible, Ireland will not denounce the words of St Patrick.

Why not? What's preventing there from being an Islamic preacher who's just as or even more persuasive to the Irishmen than St. Patrick?

And note that I did not specify Ireland. There is nothing in my challenge precluding a different Celtic group from becoming Islamic. It gets even easier the more chaotic your world gets. Contrary to popular belief, it is far from impossible to get a nation to change religion wholesale. The only even remotely hard part is persuading the rulers to convert to Islam; once that's done, then they can bring in Arab\Spanish\French-if-Islamic mercenaries (this is easier if France is also Muslim), go to work on converting the more unwilling, and if you bring in enough Muslims and are successful enough at converting the populace, then after a few generations you have Islam firmly ensconced in one or more of the Celtic nations.

Finally, note that I never ruled out the possibility of Ireland or Wales or somewhere else Celtic being conquered by an Islamic caliphate, slowly converting over time to the religion of their conquerors, and then eventually breaking off again, but Islamic; pulling a Spain or a Morocco or an Egypt, if you will. And now you have your Caliphate of Dublin or Kernow or al-Wayyelizu or whatever.

See, it really isn't that hard.
 
The only even remotely hard part is persuading the rulers to convert to Islam
Just for context : Early Medieval (and Medieval as a whole) societies were based on religion, Christianism to be precise.
"Convincing" rulers to change religion, when their very power is based on it, without conquest and with disregarding what the whole society would react (Rulers weren't the imbodiment of the people they ruled in), isn't going to be remotly hard. It's going to be insanely hard.

A general rule for AH : if something didn't happened IOTL, it's generally for good reasons.

then they can bring in Arab\Spanish\French-if-Islamic mercenaries (this is easier if France is also Muslim)
I'm going to regret the question, but how an Islamic Francia could be in any way "easy"?

See, it really isn't that hard.
Oh yes it is. There's reasons why Arabo-Berbers never really made it past Pyrenées in matter of political dominance. Not enough men, not enough reinforcement, outnumbered, political and tribal division, revolts, etc. Pick your choice.

(As an aside, could you write, if not in the regular font, at least in the regular size? Thanks.)
 
Listen to LSCatilina, he's right. Just wait until Berber revolts bring Muslim Italy/Spain to their knees.

I would like to see, however, an ATL where the Muslims, rather than conquering the Visigoths, instead conquer Italy (it would only hold the entire peninsula for a short time, methinks)
 
My definition of Celtic nations are Ireland Scotland Cornwall and Brittany. None of which will convert without help from ASB. Kingdoms were forged on Christianity and no pope will allow a muslim to rise when they are fighting heretic.
 
ITS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE CELTS TO BE ISLAMIC

The Celts adopted Christianity between 401 and 500 AD.

Islam did not begin until 22 December 609, a minimum of 110 years after Christianity had started to be preached in the Celtic nation.

Changing the state religion after this is impossible, Ireland will not denounce the words of St Patrick.

You could try turning the Celts Jewish

North Africa and th Levant were Christian too yet they did not only convert but also completly assilimated into Arabic culture. So why couldnt the Celts convert?
 
North Africa and th Levant were Christian too yet they did not only convert but also completly assilimated into Arabic culture. So why couldnt the Celts convert?

They could theoretically convert Ireland but the North African conversions was under military, economic, and political pressure. No Islamic power can bring that to bear on Ireland without first getting past France, England, and Spain. Coastal raids and Islamic missionaries aren't going to undermine Christianity in Ireland which is far out in the fringes of Europe and doesn't have any huge attraction. In fact, since ruling legitimacy was based on Christianity any real attempt to convert the population to Islam is likely to strengthen the Church's and Christian nobility's hold on the island as they'll be able to show that they're protecting the people from Muslim invaders.

By the time Islam arrives on the scene Ireland is already a firmly Christian country and dislodging it would take the destruction of much of what we consider Western culture or a series of very unlikely events. It's certainly not impossible but the remoteness of Ireland, low population, it's general lack of interesting things to conquer, and its very firm Christianity makes converting to Islam without a major early POD very difficult.
 
North Africa and th Levant were Christian too yet they did not only convert but also completly assilimated into Arabic culture. So why couldnt the Celts convert?

Actually it took quite an important time for Berber or Christians being completly assimilated into Arabic culture (you could even argue that it didn't happened for all, and that Arabic culture is far from a monolithic feature).
Christians still represented the majority of the population in Syria, Spain, Egypt up to quite late (XIIth century, roughly). It's not a process that happened overnight, it required a maintained control.

The question is, even if Arabo-Berbers were able to conquer Ireland (and while not exactly ASB, it would be incredibly hard, as for motivation, ressources and manpower), could they maintain their presence and domination long enough, during centuries, to have this process not only begin (Arabs weren't that much interested in conversions to begin with, as it reduced greatly their fiscal revenues) but be at least ongoing?

My definition of Celtic nations are Ireland Scotland Cornwall and Brittany. None of which will convert without help from ASB. Kingdoms were forged on Christianity and no pope will allow a muslim to rise when they are fighting heretic.
It doesn't mean that Arabo-Berbers couldn't just conquer a kingdom and impose themselves as they did in Spain. I agree that going to Brittany or insular Celtic regions is going to be really hard, but if you create more close celtic regions that didn't existed IOTL (unless you count wishful thinking), as I proposed to do with Galicia, it can be done and even relativly plausible.
 

Redhand

Banned
Keep in mind that there was a lot more similarities between Arab Bedouin culture and North African Berber culture through lifestyle as well as the people of the Levant due to a history of trade relations than there was towards anyone in Europe. This made Islam much more palatable to the people living under the initial Arab conquests than those in Spain.

While I have no doubt that Islam can be localized to match Celtic culture much like Christianity was and like it did in India, the Caliphate that takes Ireland or Brittany or wherever you have in mind is not going to have nearly the amount of state bureaucratic power as Rome did when spreading Christianity internally. Rome was an institutionalized bureaucracy, the Umayyads were an Arabo-Bedouin Warrior nobility imposing itself on conquered peoples.
 
Pretty much that is why I didnt suggest the Celts surviving in Iberia that could butterfly Christianitys rise.

Well, a reasonably large number of Britons migrated to Iberia in the early 5th century C.E., and formed new Celtic settlements in Galicia that lasted for a while; conceivably, you could have the Celts in Galicia stay a cohesive unit for longer than OTL, such that, when they eventually convert to Islam, they're one single Islamic Celtic... unit.
 
Well, a reasonably large number of Britons migrated to Iberia in the early 5th century C.E., and formed new Celtic settlements in Galicia that lasted for a while; conceivably, you could have the Celts in Galicia stay a cohesive unit for longer than OTL, such that, when they eventually convert to Islam, they're one single Islamic Celtic... unit.
That is an interestin possibility maybe this Islamic Celtic Kingdom with capital at Bracara(Braga).
 
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