Minority Rights in a Victorious Confederacy?

Delta Force

Banned
What would the situation be like in a victorious Confederacy for ethnic and religious minorities? Would the Confederacy have a similar attitude towards African-Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Catholics, Jews, and other minorities that the Southern United States had towards them in the aftermath of the American Civil War with the Klan and Jim Crow? Or might the rise of a Jewish immigrant like Judah P. Benjamin to the office of Secretary of War and Secretary of State in the Confederate Cabinet have been less of the anachronism it seems like today and something that only became radical in the aftermath of the Confederacy's defeat?
 
For minorities of non-African descent, I'm guessing it will be rough, but not that much worse than the United States.

For black people, it will be continued slavery. The North will want the South back, and will end up stirring up slave revolts to undermine their enemy. Combined with the generally decreasing utility of slaves and the likely drift of the CSA into authoritarianism (a plantation economy will regress towards elite sham democracy or military dictatorship; look at most of Latin America) means that the probable endgame is either forced repatriation, genocide, or some combination of the two for black people.
 
What would the situation be like in a victorious Confederacy for ethnic and religious minorities? Would the Confederacy have a similar attitude towards African-Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Catholics, Jews, and other minorities that the Southern United States had towards them in the aftermath of the American Civil War with the Klan and Jim Crow? Or might the rise of a Jewish immigrant like Judah P. Benjamin to the office of Secretary of War and Secretary of State in the Confederate Cabinet have been less of the anachronism it seems like today and something that only became radical in the aftermath of the Confederacy's defeat?

Well, it may depend on the situation, whatever does happen. I think it may very well be possible that the C.S.A. will become more tolerant of (conservative) Jews in the long run, but they'd have to keep a low profile and not be willing to rock the boat.

Can't see things getting any noticeably better for the Natives than OTL, TBH; in fact, it may actually be worse for many of them, especially for the Apaches, Comanches, etc. A few, like Stand Watie, might actually be semi-respected in the eyes of the C.S. public in the short term, but anything beyond that is debateable.

Latinos? Sorry to say, but they're not liable to be terribly well-off, either, even for those who happen to be passing as "white", outside perhaps southern Louisiana, Florida and a few other areas(namely, big cities, and maybe a few areas of Texas). They may not have it quite as bad as Natives(and certainly black folks!) would, but even those Latinos considered to be "white" are going to have a hard time, simply because of the culture clashes that would occur, outside those areas I mentioned. It also wouldn't help that they were Catholic, by and large; most of the South was not known to be particularly tolerant towards even "white" Roman Catholics, and to be honest, I'm not terribly optimistic about that changing anytime in the next 40 or so years after the C.S.A. gains it independence.

Irish-Americans are probably going to run into some hardships as well; contrary to some of the popular myths & beliefs surrounding the South, the Deep South, at least, was very much a W.A.S.P. territory in many parts(with the Appalachian hills and a few other places excepted; the former in particular, still had a largely Scots-Irish population). You may, perhaps, see a few Scots-Irish politicos try to intervene on behalf of these new arrivals, but it's unlikely they'd have much success in the short run, partly because at this point, the majority of the SI Southerners with any real power were very much assimilated into the elite planter culture, and at least many of them, if not most, had at least a little Anglo ancestry in them, and no doubt that many of those who were opposed to such immigration would draw on that.

And I certainly can say that there's not going to be too many Italians or Greeks in the Confederacy, either, outside of maybe New Orleans and Tampa, and a few other places.

All in all, as prejudiced as some Americans may have been IOTL, it just could not (plausibly!) reach the extent that it very well could in the C.S.A.
 
Even OTL U.S. had a strong streak of anti-Catholicism. The 2nd Klan referred to the Pope as a "foreign dictator", Kennedy's Catholicism was considered an issue in 1960, and many Americans considered them effectively warmed-over pagans (some American Protestants still do, though usually in a less virulent fashion than in the 19th-early 20th centuries).
 

Delta Force

Banned
For minorities of non-African descent, I'm guessing it will be rough, but not that much worse than the United States.

For black people, it will be continued slavery. The North will want the South back, and will end up stirring up slave revolts to undermine their enemy. Combined with the generally decreasing utility of slaves and the likely drift of the CSA into authoritarianism (a plantation economy will regress towards elite sham democracy or military dictatorship; look at most of Latin America) means that the probable endgame is either forced repatriation, genocide, or some combination of the two for black people.

Wouldn't genocide be pretty extreme?

Well, it may depend on the situation, whatever does happen. I think it may very well be possible that the C.S.A. will become more tolerant of (conservative) Jews in the long run, but they'd have to keep a low profile and not be willing to rock the boat.

How long run would it be though? Wasn't anti-Semitism quite common in the United States until after World War II?

Can't see things getting any noticeably better for the Natives than OTL, TBH; in fact, it may actually be worse for many of them, especially for the Apaches, Comanches, etc. A few, like Stand Watie, might actually be semi-respected in the eyes of the C.S. public in the short term, but anything beyond that is debateable.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Indian Territory had been ceded to the Confederacy, as many Native American tribes fought on the side of the Confederacy, or at least against the Union. Might that actually cause something of a breach in Confederate vs. Union attitudes towards the Native Americans? Confederate Native Americans would have helped win the war and would be living on reservations in Oklahoma, which would be largely out of the way until the discovery of petroleum. In the Union of course there would still be the Indian Wars out West.

Latinos? Sorry to say, but they're not liable to be terribly well-off, either, even for those who happen to be passing as "white", outside perhaps southern Louisiana, Florida and a few other areas(namely, big cities, and maybe a few areas of Texas). They may not have it quite as bad as Natives(and certainly black folks!) would, but even those Latinos considered to be "white" are going to have a hard time, simply because of the culture clashes that would occur, outside those areas I mentioned. It also wouldn't help that they were Catholic, by and large; most of the South was not known to be particularly tolerant towards even "white" Roman Catholics, and to be honest, I'm not terribly optimistic about that changing anytime in the next 40 or so years after the C.S.A. gains it independence.

So historically, anti-Catholicism was a bigger issue than anti-Semitism?

Irish-Americans are probably going to run into some hardships as well; contrary to some of the popular myths & beliefs surrounding the South, the Deep South, at least, was very much a W.A.S.P. territory in many parts(with the Appalachian hills and a few other places excepted; the former in particular, still had a largely Scots-Irish population). You may, perhaps, see a few Scots-Irish politicos try to intervene on behalf of these new arrivals, but it's unlikely they'd have much success in the short run, partly because at this point, the majority of the SI Southerners with any real power were very much assimilated into the elite planter culture, and at least many of them, if not most, had at least a little Anglo ancestry in them, and no doubt that many of those who were opposed to such immigration would draw on that.

And I certainly can say that there's not going to be too many Italians or Greeks in the Confederacy, either, outside of maybe New Orleans and Tampa, and a few other places.

I've read of some instances in which Irish Americans were treated even worse than slaves in the antebellum South, so things could be very bleak for them for quite some time. I can't see them (or Greeks or Italians) going to the Confederacy instead of the United States if similar circumstances continued after the war.

All in all, as prejudiced as some Americans may have been IOTL, it just could not (plausibly!) reach the extent that it very well could in the C.S.A.

I think the Union would be better than the Confederacy in most regards, although some parts of the United States were more racist and/or discriminatory than others.

The minority would be the only ones with the rights. It was the rich, landed gentry that ran the country.

Definitely, especially for South Carolina, where the people couldn't directly vote for President until after the Civil War.
 
The country is built on white supremacy that views Africans as not really human. Once the slaves aren't all that useful economically, and are causing trouble due to slave revolts, extermination/expulsion is the logical next step.
Sadly, this seems likely. Maybe not outright genocide, but some "thinning of the herds", so to speak.
 
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Delta Force

Banned
The country is built on white supremacy that views Africans as not really human. Once the slaves aren't all that useful economically, and are causing trouble due to slave revolts, extermination/expulsion is the logical next step.

I don't think even the Klan went that far.
 
What would the situation be like in a victorious Confederacy for ethnic and religious minorities? Would the Confederacy have a similar attitude towards African-Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Catholics, Jews, and other minorities that the Southern United States had towards them in the aftermath of the American Civil War with the Klan and Jim Crow? Or might the rise of a Jewish immigrant like Judah P. Benjamin to the office of Secretary of War and Secretary of State in the Confederate Cabinet have been less of the anachronism it seems like today and something that only became radical in the aftermath of the Confederacy's defeat?

That depends on what state they are in. In some cities or counties they might not even be a minority.
 
What would the situation be like in a victorious Confederacy for ethnic and religious minorities? Would the Confederacy have a similar attitude towards African-Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Catholics, Jews, and other minorities that the Southern United States had towards them in the aftermath of the American Civil War with the Klan and Jim Crow? Or might the rise of a Jewish immigrant like Judah P. Benjamin to the office of Secretary of War and Secretary of State in the Confederate Cabinet have been less of the anachronism it seems like today and something that only became radical in the aftermath of the Confederacy's defeat?

My guess is that the Confederacy would have been more accepting of non-African minorities than the U.S.A. was.

This is because in general, the need for unity and inclusion against the possibility of slave rebellion meant that large slave-holding societies were often more tolerant within their free population, creating a cultural attitude in which all of the free population was at least somewhat equal since they weren't slaves (compare to e.g. the period mudsill theory; the South was basically a sort of herrenvolk democracy.) This has been true throughout history - e.g. ancient Sparta had quite a bit more gender equality than the other Greek cities, but this was restricted only to the ruling Spartiate class, since it was so tiny that they had to make use of their female population.

In a similar way, we can see a situation in which immigrants to the Confederacy were treated reasonably equally, as long as they assimilated into the slave-holding ruling class. If nothing else, there would be a constant need for immigrants (to ensure the slave population didn't grow too large as a percentage of the population).




The big exception, of course, is for free African-Americans, who'll be supremely unlucky in this world.
 
The country is built on white supremacy that views Africans as not really human. Once the slaves aren't all that useful economically, and are causing trouble due to slave revolts, extermination/expulsion is the logical next step.

Genocide is absurd. They'd be killing a third of their country. That is Pol Pot levels of madness. No, instead it'd be slavery in all but name, then maybe segregation, until the whole system collapsed in on itself.

Regarding the United States, I too think it'd be bad as well, since the Republicans would be discredited and there would be next to no civil rights legislation. It wouldn't come close to the horrors of the South though.
 
Jingle Bells

The confederacy was even tolerant of Unitarians. Jingle Bells was written shortly before the civil war by Unitarian named John Pierpont. When the war started, he decided to stay in Savannah rather that go back north. I suppose he found the Confederacy pretty tolerant.
 
Jingle Bells

The confederacy was even tolerant of Unitarians. Jingle Bells was written shortly before the civil war by Unitarian named John Pierpont. When the war started, he decided to stay in Savannah rather that go back north. I suppose he found the Confederacy pretty tolerant.

Was he white? And Christian? Otherwise, I think that the question of minority rights a Post-Confederate Victory TL can summed up as, "minority rights? What are those?"
 
Wouldn't genocide be pretty extreme?



How long run would it be though? Wasn't anti-Semitism quite common in the United States until after World War II?

Anti-Semitism was a problem until the 1940s, yes. But it wasn't quite widespread, either, even in the '20s, when the first Red Scare was going on.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Indian Territory had been ceded to the Confederacy, as many Native American tribes fought on the side of the Confederacy, or at least against the Union. Might that actually cause something of a breach in Confederate vs. Union attitudes towards the Native Americans? Confederate Native Americans would have helped win the war and would be living on reservations in Oklahoma, which would be largely out of the way until the discovery of petroleum. In the Union of course there would still be the Indian Wars out West.

A few tribes did, yes, but primarily against the Union.

So historically, anti-Catholicism was a bigger issue than anti-Semitism?

For the most part, yes, perhaps especially in parts of the South.

I've read of some instances in which Irish Americans were treated even worse than slaves in the antebellum South, so things could be very bleak for them for quite some time. I can't see them (or Greeks or Italians) going to the Confederacy instead of the United States if similar circumstances continued after the war.

This wouldn't be surprising, sadly.

I think the Union would be better than the Confederacy in most regards, although some parts of the United States were more racist and/or discriminatory than others.

True, true. For example, IOTL, prejudice against, say, Chinese, was usually worse on the West Coast, as it so happens, than in New York or Chicago.

Definitely, especially for South Carolina, where the people couldn't directly vote for President until after the Civil War.

And it would likely stay that way for a while. Hell, it's almost a miracle this didn't get extended to other states, as well!

My guess is that the Confederacy would have been more accepting of non-African minorities than the U.S.A. was. This is because in general, the need for unity and inclusion against the possibility of slave rebellion meant that large slave-holding societies were often more tolerant within their free population, creating a cultural attitude in which all of the free population was at least somewhat equal since they weren't slaves (compare to e.g. the period mudsill theory; the South was basically a sort of herrenvolk democracy.) This has been true throughout history - e.g. ancient Sparta had quite a bit more gender equality than the other Greek cities, but this was restricted only to the ruling Spartiate class, since it was so tiny that they had to make use of their female population.

I'm not so sure of that, TBH. The South in general was a bit more conservative than most of the North as a whole even before slavery began to take off IOTL, and anti-Catholicism was almost as widespread as up North, and quite a bit more virulent in some places, by the 1850s. I can't see that changing much with any plausible POD that isn't radical in nature.

If anything at all, the inequality between the free populations(with Anglos on top, assimilated Protestant Scots-Irish, Germans, etc. second, and so on) would almost certainly be worse, at least in the short term, than in the U.S., and partly because of slavery, and not despite it.

In a similar way, we can see a situation in which immigrants to the Confederacy were treated reasonably equally, as long as they assimilated into the slave-holding ruling class. If nothing else, there would be a constant need for immigrants (to ensure the slave population didn't grow too large as a percentage of the population).

This might be possible in the long run, but it would take a *hell* of a POD, or PODs(multiple) to make that actually work as a whole(and not just with exceptions, like maybe New Orleans, for example); it would be a tough job, seeing as that the Confederacy was basically explicitly founded as a Herrenvolk republic.
(note the emphasis).
 
The CSA had very few "Latinos" except in Texas, where their status varied from scions of old families that had fought with Houston to "lower class" mostly in rural border areas (New Mexico was part of the USA). Some Spanish "blood" families in South Louisiana.

White minorities in CSA would be Catholics (Louisiana, Texas, Gulf Coast & random), Irish various places, and Jews (not too many but spread about). Anti-Catholic prejudice would be present, the extent depending on where you were (obviously not in New Orleans/South Louisiana). Anti-Irish to some extent, but remember there were fair number of Irish in the CS Army as well as famous ones like Patrick Cleburne. Anti-Semitism was rampant, not sure if any worse than in the north, Judah Benjamin was openly and viciously attacked as a Jew by politicians and others accused of working against the best interests of the CSA because of that etc.

Given the relatively small number of non "anglo-saxon" (or at least western European) folks in the CSA in 1861, and the reality that the CSA would probably be very restrictive in its immigration policies (northwest Europe, British Isles, France, Germany) issues of white minorities won't be much of an issue. I would not expect a CSA based on slavery, with political power if not franchise limited to an elite to be a terribly attractive destination for many immigrants, especially those like Irish, Jews, Eastern/Southern Europeans and since slaves represent a large and growing labor pool for a country that would not be heavily industrialized (by choice) no need for lots of immigrants.
 
The CSA had very few "Latinos" except in Texas, where their status varied from scions of old families that had fought with Houston to "lower class" mostly in rural border areas (New Mexico was part of the USA). Some Spanish "blood" families in South Louisiana.

True. And it's very possible that at least a few of these families might themselves be able to join the local elite in these areas, at least with a little help from their associates.

White minorities in CSA would be Catholics (Louisiana, Texas, Gulf Coast & random), Irish various places, and Jews (not too many but spread about). Anti-Catholic prejudice would be present, the extent depending on where you were (obviously not in New Orleans/South Louisiana).

I agree with you re: New Orleans.

Anti-Irish to some extent, but remember there were fair number of Irish in the CS Army as well as famous ones like Patrick Cleburne.

Which is surprising, but perhaps adequately explained by the more rampant anti-Catholicism present in the 1850s as opposed to just after the Civil War ended.

Anti-Semitism was rampant, not sure if any worse than in the north, Judah Benjamin was openly and viciously attacked as a Jew by politicians and others accused of working against the best interests of the CSA because of that etc.

I guess I'm not all that surprised.

Given the relatively small number of non "anglo-saxon" (or at least western European) folks in the CSA in 1861, and the reality that the CSA would probably be very restrictive in its immigration policies (northwest Europe, British Isles, France, Germany) issues of white minorities won't be much of an issue. I would not expect a CSA based on slavery, with political power if not franchise limited to an elite to be a terribly attractive destination for many immigrants, especially those like Irish, Jews, Eastern/Southern Europeans and since slaves represent a large and growing labor pool for a country that would not be heavily industrialized (by choice) no need for lots of immigrants.

And, to be honest, I'm not sure if even French people would be necessarily accepted all that much, outside Louisiana, Florida, the Miss./Ala. coast, and some of the bigger cities besides.....given that they were mostly Catholic(and the Huguenots had already largely become Anglicized at this point, IIRC)

There were a lot of Irish Catholics in Savannah Georgia too.
 
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