More Expansionist Ming

I thought of a scenario in which the Ming Dynasty is more expansionist and decides to create an empire from the Mongols after China regains independence from them. With gunpowder weapons and a large population, they should be able to take a large part of the world.

file:///C:/Users/WINDOW/Downloads/CHINA.png

What do you guys think of the map? BTW, someone help me try to make it appear because I can't/ Just copy the link and look it up.
 
Eh, you can't exactly just upload images here from your hard drive. You have to put them on a photo-sharing website first (like Photobucket).

One thing to think about when trying to make a scenario where Ming expands into Mongolia is the logistics involved. Since Mongol hordes have the benefit of not having any fixed points to defend a Ming army probably has to travel quite far before they see any actual engagement, all the while being unable to live off the land and so having to rely on long and easily-attacked supply lines.

Not to say that the Ming can't possibly travel this far - a string of garrison-depots stretching out from the Nine Major Strongholds (Datong, Xuan Fu) could possibly be established all along Mongolia, with grain from the south coming up to the Northern staging points via the Grand Canal - but the cost would be so exorbitant that such a scheme would probably arouse the furious opposition of the bureaucracy, and would require very strong Emperors to silence.

Also the reason why the Qing 'conquered' Mongolia and held it so successfully was because the Manchus were masters of adapting to local customs. In the Qing Empire, Mongolian nobles were administered very differently from Han Chinese, and the Qing Empire made every effort to appease Mongolian sensibilities, e.g. receiving tribute from them not at Beijing but at Chengde Summer Palace, learning and speaking Mongolian, and claiming (after the invasion of Tibet) to be Lamas of Tibetan Buddhism. Han Chinese aren't likely to do this ('it'll be a betrayal of our worldview!') so Mongolia will likely take a much larger effort to annex for them.
 
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Eh, you can't exactly just upload images here from your hard drive. You have to put them on a photo-sharing website first (like Photobucket).

One thing to think about when trying to make a scenario where Ming expands into Mongolia is the logistics involved. Since Mongol hordes have the benefit of not having any fixed points to defend a Ming army probably has to travel quite far before they see any actual engagement, all the while being unable to live off the land and so having to rely on long and easily-attacked supply lines.

Not to say that the Ming can't possibly travel this far - a string of garrison-depots stretching out from the Nine Major Strongholds (Datong, Xuan Fu) could possibly be established all along Mongolia, with grain from the south coming up to the Northern staging points via the Grand Canal - but the cost would be so exorbitant that such a scheme would probably arouse the furious opposition of the bureaucracy, and would require very strong Emperors to silence.

Also the reason why the Qing 'conquered' Mongolia and held it so successfully was because the Manchus were masters of adapting to local customs. In the Qing Empire, Mongolian nobles were administered very differently from Han Chinese, and the Qing Empire made every effort to appease Mongolian sensibilities, e.g. receiving tribute from them not at Beijing but at Chengde Summer Palace, learning and speaking Mongolian, and claiming (after the invasion of Tibet) to be Lamas of Tibetan Buddhism. Han Chinese aren't likely to do this ('it'll be a betrayal of our worldview!') so Mongolia will likely take a much larger effort to annex for them.

What if like China adapts the Mongol way of fighting?
 
What if like China adapts the Mongol way of fighting?

Both Hongwu and Yongle Emperors tried to employ Mongols ( and Jurchens) in their own systems instead. And Mongols stayed in the imperial system until the end of Ming.

The problem was the non-expansionist mentality of Hongwu himself. Ming was constitutionally pacifist. Here is the law he made for his descendants:

皇明祖訓 Imperial Ming Ancestral Ordinances said:
四方諸夷,皆限山隔海,僻在一隅;得其地不足以供給,得其民不足以使令。若其自不揣量,來擾我邊,則彼為不祥。彼既不為中國患,而我興兵輕伐,亦不祥也。吾恐後世子孫,倚中國富強,貪一時戰功,無故興兵,致傷人命,切記不可。但胡戎與西北邊境,互相密邇,累世戰爭,必選將練兵,時謹備之。

Barbarian tribes of the four directions, all of them are constrained in their own remote places. If you conquer them, their lands are too thin to provide resources, their people too inept to take orders.

If they failed to know the limit of their own strength, and come to harass our borders, it would be ominous for them. But since they formed no threat to the Middle Kingdom, it would be equally ominous for us to imprudently raise an army and invade them.

I fear for my descendants, that with the wealth and power of the Middle Kingdom on their hands, they would be eager to gain short term martial achievements, and use military forces for no reason, causing the loss of human lives. Remember that this is not permitted.

But the Northern Barbarians and the north and western borders are close to each other, wars has been going on for generations. [My descendants] must select commanders and train troops, and be carefully on guard all the time.

He went on and listed 15 foreign nations that should never be attacked.

Other than Yongle's conquest of Annam, this law was faithfully followed.

As such mentality was deeply entrenched within the Chinese psyche, it was no accident that the Zheng He's voyages was halted and his maps burnt.
 
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Both Hongwu and Yongle Emperors tried to employ Mongols ( and Jurchens) in their own systems instead. And Mongols stayed in the imperial system until the end of Ming.

The problem was the non-expansionist mentality of Hongwu himself. Ming was constitutionally pacifist. Here is the law he made for his descendants:



He went on and listed 15 foreign nations that should never be attacked.

Other than Yongle's conquest of Annam, this law was faithfully followed.

As such mentality was deeply entrenched within the Chinese psyche, it was no accident that the Zheng He's voyages was halted and his maps burnt.

I actually got this idea from Easternized World. So assuming the Ming aren't able to do such thing, which non-foreign dynasty is capable of creating such an empire?

Also, what if China used the same methods the Mongols used when they created their empire?
 
I actually got this idea from Easternized World. So assuming the Ming aren't able to do such thing, which non-foreign dynasty is capable of creating such an empire?

Also, what if China used the same methods the Mongols used when they created their empire?

That timeline would essentially be considered as ASB here. I would suggest that you first take a look at this thread, then come back if you still have any questions.

Although that thread only focuses on the Tang and Song, most of the points discussed are also generally applicable to the Ming.
 
What if like China adapts the Mongol way of fighting?

The mongol tactic of a highly mobile light cavalry army isn't just something you choose to adopt. It's something that arose in Mongolia and among the Turkmeni tribes due to a preexisting pastoral horse based culture where that kind of warfare is common and where everyone is likely to have a horse already and all the skills to ride one. The Chineese on the other hand, have an agricultural settled society distinct from this style of warfare which would make adopting it rather difficult. It's the kind of doctrinal shift that would be extremely difficult to achieve especially given the roots of the Ming as an anti mongol anti foreign rebellion.

What the Ming could plausibly do would be to expand their light cavalry through various means, what I could plausibly see them doing would be allowing certain nomadic tribes to settle within china if they provided light cavalry support for Ming armies. That's not unprecedented in Chineese history.
 

Redhand

Banned
The Ming sent out these huge trade fleets until court politics put a stop to it in 1433. Maybe the Ming figure out the whole colonization thing before the Europeans and take some trade ports in East Africa and the East Indies along the Portugal model of controlling trade. This in time may lead to outright expansion of territory.

Starting further wars of expansion on its own borders may have carried the possibility for success but they seemed to lack the will to do it.
 
...

He went on and listed 15 foreign nations that should never be attacked.

Other than Yongle's conquest of Annam, this law was faithfully followed.

As such mentality was deeply entrenched within the Chinese psyche, it was no accident that the Zheng He's voyages was halted and his maps burnt.

Some of the nations listed on the list are prominent maritime nations such as Japan, Srivijaya, Java (island), Sumatra (island) etc.

Too bad that his descendants do not get the hint that Ming needs a strong navy and cannot rely on strong army alone.

Here's the list in wikipedia (Chinese only)

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/不征之國
 
More like they did try but failed. Vietnam campaign ended up... well Vietnam, while the expedition to Mongolia ended up with the emperor captured by the Oriats and Beijing besieged.
 
Its actually hard to imagine Ming expanding more agressively. They essentially attacked every nation around their border, invaded Vietnam, sent punative expeditions to Japan and funded absurdly larger Treasure Fleets. Ming expeditions into Mongolis had 80,000 men in them and tried to kill everybody and let god sort it out. That said its a good question.

The key to me is how could MIng have expanded more sustainably. IMHO this means that someone in the Courty would have gotten the idea to open up trade. Everyone eanted Chiense finished goods but China kept its trade tight, even during the early period. In fact the Oirant Horde attacked just to gain trade rights. Anyway if China opened up trade that would have given them more money, prevented inflation and forced them to maintain trade posts that could have created a maratime empire.

Also the Forbidden City would have to have bee cancelled. Ming used the money it had earmarked to fight Tamerlane to build the FS.​
 
What if like China adapts the Mongol way of fighting?

What, you mean like cavalry armies and horde tactics?

No they couldn't. Cavalry rearing requires large tracts of grassland that the Ming (or any other Chinese dynasty) didn't have, partly because of the gigantic population, partly because of the need to provide all princes with large Imperial Estates.

Alternatively, they could hire Mongolian mercenaries, I suppose... the problem of cost will still exist, and there's also the added problem that you might simply be replacing one enemy with another, more powerful one.

Oh, and the myth of a 'peaceful Ming', or a 'peaceful China' in general is a supremely big misconception. A scholar actually did a collation of Ming wars against the Mongols (Cultural Realism: Strategic Culture and Grand Strategy in China) and came to the conclusion that the level of aggression Ming showed was based on capability, so a stronger Ming = more aggressive wars. It's got very little to do with some innate Ming pacifism.

One can argue that Ming's expansion was not about annexation but rather submission, but that doesn't change how aggressive Ming was against its neighbors.

Given this, a more expansionist Ming needs to be a stronger Ming. Have Hongwu encourage commerce rather than agriculture. Have him retain bureaucratic government, especially in not abolishing the position of Chancellor. Weaken the power of the princes and for God's sake abolish the terrible practice of giving imperial estates to every single son and grandson.

The Ming army still probably won't use gunpowder. There's no military need for it if the Empire is so dominant.
 
What, you mean like cavalry armies and horde tactics?

No they couldn't. Cavalry rearing requires large tracts of grassland that the Ming (or any other Chinese dynasty) didn't have, partly because of the gigantic population, partly because of the need to provide all princes with large Imperial Estates.

Alternatively, they could hire Mongolian mercenaries, I suppose... the problem of cost will still exist, and there's also the added problem that you might simply be replacing one enemy with another, more powerful one.

Oh, and the myth of a 'peaceful Ming', or a 'peaceful China' in general is a supremely big misconception. A scholar actually did a collation of Ming wars against the Mongols (Cultural Realism: Strategic Culture and Grand Strategy in China) and came to the conclusion that the level of aggression Ming showed was based on capability, so a stronger Ming = more aggressive wars. It's got very little to do with some innate Ming pacifism.

One can argue that Ming's expansion was not about annexation but rather submission, but that doesn't change how aggressive Ming was against its neighbors.

Given this, a more expansionist Ming needs to be a stronger Ming. Have Hongwu encourage commerce rather than agriculture. Have him retain bureaucratic government, especially in not abolishing the position of Chancellor. Weaken the power of the princes and for God's sake abolish the terrible practice of giving imperial estates to every single son and grandson.

The Ming army still probably won't use gunpowder. There's no military need for it if the Empire is so dominant.

But what if the Ming Dynasty decided to use gunpowder more? And what if the Ming Dynasty had an expansionist policy? Also, what if the Ming forced the Mongol tribes to rely on them through trade? Something the Romans did.
 
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RousseauX

Donor
But what if the Ming Dynasty decided to use gunpowder more? And what if the Ming Dynasty had an expansionist policy?

The problem with an expansionist China is that it's hard to go anywhere.

To the North are nomads and steppes, deserts lay to the west. Maybe northern Manchuria is do-able if some Ming emperor decisively pushes out the Manchu/Jurchens because the area is at least good farm land so there's a point of taking it. But Mongolia itself is kinda worthless because there's little/no economic value.

To the East lies Japan (1 invasion attempt failed), Korea (repeated invasion attempts failed, pretty much every Chinese gov seems ok with it as tributary state)

To the South are jungles of Vietnam (couple of invasions and annexation attempts, failures across the board).

So the only real place expansion seems possible is by sea in places like the Philippines and Malaysia, where there was historically a Chinese presence which can be expanded by official state sponsorship, and maybe some "gunboats" now and then. Who knows, maybe a few more Chinese states like the Lanfang Repubic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanfang_Republic

Also, what if the Ming forced the Mongol tribes to rely on them through trade?
The Mongol tribes -do- rely on China for trade, but trade doesn't really reduce conflict since sooner or later they decide they'd rather just take what they want (see both Rome and China w.r.t to the barbarians).
 
The problem with an expansionist China is that it's hard to go anywhere.

To the North are nomads and steppes, deserts lay to the west. Maybe northern Manchuria is do-able if some Ming emperor decisively pushes out the Manchu/Jurchens because the area is at least good farm land so there's a point of taking it. But Mongolia itself is kinda worthless because there's little/no economic value.

To the East lies Japan (1 invasion attempt failed), Korea (repeated invasion attempts failed, pretty much every Chinese gov seems ok with it as tributary state)

To the South are jungles of Vietnam (couple of invasions and annexation attempts, failures across the board).

So the only real place expansion seems possible is by sea in places like the Philippines and Malaysia, where there was historically a Chinese presence which can be expanded by official state sponsorship, and maybe some "gunboats" now and then. Who knows, maybe a few more Chinese states like the Lanfang Repubic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanfang_Republic

The Mongol tribes -do- rely on China for trade, but trade doesn't really reduce conflict since sooner or later they decide they'd rather just take what they want (see both Rome and China w.r.t to the barbarians).

If Manchuria is good then would China go there? And then to Siberia?
 
But what if the Ming Dynasty decided to use gunpowder more? And what if the Ming Dynasty had an expansionist policy? Also, what if the Ming forced the Mongol tribes to rely on them through trade? Something the Romans did.

I don't deny that adopting gunpowder would have given the Ming a massive edge against their enemies, but what is going to make them go through all the costs of creating a gunpowder army?

The point I was making was that the Ming did have an expansionist policy, as do most powerful nations. The reason why they didn't expand so much was the fact that they were not capable of undertaking such expansion (at least, not in the long-run).

Opening/expanding the border markets was certainly something that the Ming could have done, and that would just be a continuation of Han policy. It's worth noting, though, that this policy wasn't really what forced the Xiongnu to cease being a threat to the Han (it was more Han armies coupled up with Xiongnu internal troubles).

If you can make the Ming use gunpowder, and have the Mongolian tribes actually be integrated into Ming governance, I'd argue that Ming expansion will be towards the Tarim Basin like their Han/Tang predecessors. Siberia is just so much empty land from the Ming point of view, and expansion in Southeast Asia is too much pain for too little reward.
 

RousseauX

Donor
If Manchuria is good then would China go there? And then to Siberia?

Eastern Siberia is probably do-able if by "go there" you mean, "there's some fur traders/trading posts and maybe a few thousand garrison troops". But don't expect urban civilization like some version of Harbin in Yakutsk.
 
I don't deny that adopting gunpowder would have given the Ming a massive edge against their enemies, but what is going to make them go through all the costs of creating a gunpowder army?

The point I was making was that the Ming did have an expansionist policy, as do most powerful nations. The reason why they didn't expand so much was the fact that they were not capable of undertaking such expansion (at least, not in the long-run).

Opening/expanding the border markets was certainly something that the Ming could have done, and that would just be a continuation of Han policy. It's worth noting, though, that this policy wasn't really what forced the Xiongnu to cease being a threat to the Han (it was more Han armies coupled up with Xiongnu internal troubles).

If you can make the Ming use gunpowder, and have the Mongolian tribes actually be integrated into Ming governance, I'd argue that Ming expansion will be towards the Tarim Basin like their Han/Tang predecessors. Siberia is just so much empty land from the Ming point of view, and expansion in Southeast Asia is too much pain for too little reward.

I tend to skim things, so sorry I forgot the expansionist thingamaging.

Siberia has gold, you know that? One discovery can lead to a gold rush. And plus, if Mongolia is barren how are the Mongols able to find good horse pasture? The region can be like American cowboys raising cattle- there just needs to be settlers.

Plus, China would encourage settlers to colonize like America did.

Eastern Siberia is probably do-able if by "go there" you mean, "there's some fur traders/trading posts and maybe a few thousand garrison troops". But don't expect urban civilization like some version of Harbin in Yakutsk.

Well, there are some good mineral sources there like gold.
 
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